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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so ive been checking out army list and such (trying to figure out a 1500pts list) and ive come across a few that have said something about a water warrior style/army and i have no clue what there talking about...so whats a water warrior...thing.

Thx for the help

Bloodhowler
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thx affie. Thats a great tactia or watever...but its huge! well thanks...now i got to go read it all.

Bloodhowler
 

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In short, the tactica suggests that the best-performing army is one that remains flexible, and capable of adapting easily to your opponent. In the words of Bruce Lee, "You must be formless, shapeless, like water."

Sun Tsu talks about this concept far more eloquently than I can in The Art of War, which is also a great read on military strategy. Basically, keep your army light and mobile, so you never get stuck in one place, and can easily force your opponent to chase you, which keeps him/her off guard, in theory. In the tactica referenced above, he suggests two small squads of Grey Knights in Land Raiders (that's the standard version, NOT the crusader), and a brother-captain with psycannon. Give each GK squad an incinerator and that's 1,000 points.

Now, I haven't tried this, but the THEORY is that you keep the squads in the raiders, and use the lascannons and psycannon to poke the opponent in the eye from a distance. Eventually, hopefully, your opponent with charge. By keeping your squad in front of each raider, you can lay down withering fire, then when something (genestealers, e.g.) gets too close, jump in the raider. Tank shock the advancing army, then jump out and cook them with the incinerators.

That's a quick-and-dirty summation of just a few ways to apply the "water warrior" concept, but it's more about countertactics than tactics. With practice, you can, it's said, learn to react to your opponent, doing the opposite that he/she does. This is, as far as I understand it, the concept of the "water" army.
 
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I find it easier to compile everything and print it off, easier to read that way.
 

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In short..."You must be formless, shapeless, like water."
I just wanted to say that you made a nice summary of that thread.
(I didn't quote it's entirity because I have this thing against redundancy).

"Poke him in the eye", ha! That was funny and very true to the spirit.
Bravo (twice).
 

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Just be aware that anyone using more than 2 landraiders in a game 2000pts or less, will usually in tournaments be marked negatively for army and sportmanship as its a very power gaming army.

Also from what I've found unless played right, the army will be destroyed by armies with more than 2 lascannons...
 

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Just be aware that anyone using more than 2 landraiders in a game 2000pts or less, will usually in tournaments be marked negatively for army and sportmanship as its a very power gaming army.
That's an interesting point. Maybe the reason Silent Requiem's Water Warrior list is (claimed to be) so effective is actually only 10% to do with "playstyle" and "tactical skill" and 90% to do with "2 land raiders in 1000 points."

Not many armies are prepared for that, and you'd have to be a pretty experienced general to stand a chance. I wouldn't want to face it unless I was prepared for it.

It reminds me of another great master of the art of war, Miyamoto Musashi, who worried as an old man that perhaps he wasn't actually as skilled at sword fighting as it seemed - maybe he was just bigger and stronger and meaner than everyone he'd ever fought.
 

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Its actually a really hard army to play... as said; armies with many lascannons/brightlances etc. will be HARD for you. In my shop its actually not thought of a power-gaming army since its fluffy and looses as often as it wins (maybe its just me).

All in all I'd recommend if you want a tactical challenge.

maybe he was just bigger and stronger and meaner than everyone he'd ever fought
Sounds like he was a Tyranid to me...
 

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To me the more balanced Inquisition / Grey Knight army is far more tactical and more likely to win more often than the one trick pony. Everyone can see what your going to do and either can beat you or don't have the gun power to do so.

In saying this I love the fluff of two landraiders.. I just don't recommend three.
 

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There is a difference between a water army and a Land Raider list. A water army is more of a play style concept than an army list.

The idea as Canew pointed out (with the help of Master Bruce) is to react to your opponents intentions and try to counter those intentions.
Grey Knights happen to be good at doing this due to above average shooting and CC abilities.
Example, your Tyranid (Fire army) opponent wants to rush you and engage in CC, so we counter this intention by shooting whilst retreating.
Example 2, your IG (earth army) opponent wants to sit back and exchange rounds, so we advance and ingage them in CC.

The Land Raiders are intended to help counter the intentions of mobile (air) armies but a healthy splattering of psycannons can acheive the same thing.

My point is, a "Water Army" is one that is flexible and capable of countering the 3 other elemental play styles: Fire~Aggresive/CC, Earth~Defensive/Shooting, Air~Mobile/Fragile.

A "Water Army" is not necesarily a Land Raider List.

Their is a philosophy behind Silent Requiems army list. The philosophy defines his army as a Water Army... not the army list itself.
 

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The idea as Canew pointed out (with the help of Master Bruce) is to react to your opponents intentions and try to counter those intentions.
Grey Knights happen to be good at doing this due to above average shooting and CC abilities.
Example, your Tyranid (Fire army) opponent wants to rush you and engage in CC, so we counter this intention by shooting whilst retreating.
Example 2, your IG (earth army) opponent wants to sit back and exchange rounds, so we advance and ingage them in CC.

The Land Raiders are intended to help counter the intentions of mobile (air) armies but a healthy splattering of psycannons can acheive the same thing.
I think you just explained the concept more simply in that short paragraph than all those pages at the B&C do.

So a "water" style army is pretty much just a rephrasing of Sun Tzu. Whatever your opponent does, thwart him. Interesting that in 40k people tend not to try this unless it's with Grey Knights. I don't think it's because they are particularly well-suited to it either, just because there is such a long and well-written tactica floating around out there which suggests using Grey Knights so people have just kind of assumed they are the only army the style works with.

Maybe I'll make a water guard army, because really, if that's what water is, you should be able to do it with any army - just pick units that have multiple capabilities, use them intelligently, and know your enemy. Of course you'd be flying in the face of message board advice everywhere, where accepted doctrine is to specialize.

I sometimes think message boards like LO and B&C (while great in many ways 8Y) lock new players into certain fashionable ways of playing, making a sort of arms race where "everyone knows this counters this, if you don't do this you'll lose." It's not unusual to see a post from a 40k newbie saying "I've never played before but..." and then spouting all this army building and tactical theory they've got from the internet. It never occurs to them to ignore these unwritten rules because everyone follows them but really, in war, the winner is consistently the one who breaks the rules. Which is why "water" works (in theory at least). Instead of coming up with a plan or piece of tech and going "they won't defeat my spartans/machine guns/atomic weapons (an arms race) you say "I'll work with what I've got to stop the other guy doing what he wants." You'd be making units where they were good at several things but great at none, trading specialization for flexibility. Which I suppose is what Grey Knights are. Huh. Maybe they are particularly suited to this style of play.

Still going to try water style with other armies though. Guard would probably have to be a water army, not water units. The army as a whole would have to have multiple capabilities. Water Orks would shock the pants off people.

I wonder what Silent Requiem would do if he came across a good player with an "Earth" or "Fire" army who turned out to be a "Water" general. By the time he realized, it might be too late to salvage victory.
 

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The problem is, most Fire and Earth armies cannot function in any other role. If you play a Genestealer Shock Attack army (i.e. all genestealers and most certainly Fire) in a REACTIVE way you will lose, simply because Genestealers are not well rounded. They assault. It's what they do.

The Water style is a philosophy, but it is also army composition. Not everyone can build this kind of list and play this style and still win most of the time.

I see Guard much the same way. All their weapons are either rapid fire or Heavy (unless you wish to give them all shotguns...) or use their expensive Elite/FA choices which are woefully inefficient in most games (I suppose you may be able to use Rough Riders reactively, but one unit in an all earth army doesn't really make you a Water player/army). The Guard lack the ability to be mobile and effective, and also play both the roles of attacker and defender. Guard are defenders, they sit back, bombarding with heavy artillery and maybe advancing so their guardsmen can get some work in too. A completely mounted Guard army may be seen as a Water Style list if you choose to play it that way, I don't imagine it'd be horribly effective but you never know, SR's Land Raider list isn't particularly effective but he manages a substantial W/L ratio.

The armies which seem most capable of adopting a Water style in addition to their own are Air armies. They contain the mobility necessary to react to opponents while still a near optimal dakka-output.

One can see why Grey Knights make the most obvious Water army. Our assault weapons allow us to be completely effective at range, even while forming to the battle to fit our needs. Yet we're also highly effective in close combat, whether doing or receiving a charge. Few if any armies can match this necessary requirement of a Water army as effectively as Grey Knights
 

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I sometimes think message boards like LO and B&C (while great in many ways 8Y) lock new players into certain fashionable ways of playing, making a sort of arms race where "everyone knows this counters this, if you don't do this you'll lose." It's not unusual to see a post from a 40k newbie saying "I've never played before but..." and then spouting all this army building and tactical theory they've got from the internet. It never occurs to them to ignore these unwritten rules because everyone follows them but really, in war, the winner is consistently the one who breaks the rules.
Well, I admit there is "standard" advice that gets handed out regarding certain armies (field a SM chaplain with an assault squad, don't take C'Tan in games less than 1,000 points, Orks are better in large numbers, etc.), and it's easy for a newbie player to therefore wind up fielding something exactly like most other "winning" combos, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, you CAN field, say, a shooty nid list, but it's harder to visualize, and even harder to assemble and make work on the battlefield. Ditto for a CC-oriented Tau list, a "fear" necron list, and other slightly unorthodox builds, but since they go against the "conventional wisdom," it's not necessarily such a good idea for a player new to that army to field it, as it could turn the player off.

Regarding DH, the "water" list is NOT for beginners, I think. Better to go with a "safer" 1,000-point list, say, with a lot of GKs on foot, couple IST squads in vehicles, maybe. Basically, I look at the generally-accepted advice on (insert 40k race here) as a good starting point.

After a few games using that advice, it's time to look at the threads that have subject lines like "Do SM Veterans suck?" which are bound to have suggestions on how to use less common builds. Not every player is brave enough to try new stuff like that, but that's not the fault of LO. ;Y
 

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The problem is, most Fire and Earth armies cannot function in any other role.
Very true. I do think the codices have pretty good flexibility though - you could probably build any army to conform to any style, but there are certainly styles which are easier with certain armies.

After a few games using that advice, it's time to look at the threads that have subject lines like "Do SM Veterans suck?" which are bound to have suggestions on how to use less common builds. Not every player is brave enough to try new stuff like that, but that's not the fault of LO. ;Y
Yeah don't get me wrong, I love that the internet gives us all an opportunity to talk about warhammer. It'd be pretty ironic for me to come on here and say I think forums are bad :)

I guess what I'm saying is that human nature being what it is, the more people agree with something, the more likely it is that someone new on the scene will just take it on faith. When I started playing back in like 1992 :C, I didn't have the net, and I've noticed since it's become such a big thing that it creates fashions. If you go to threads from a few years ago you'll probably find advice hugely contrary to what would be given today, but the thing is it isn't bad advice, just different. A couple of years ago on LO you would get people saying that guard players should always take lascannons for all their heavy weapons. So if you were a new player you'd read that, see that all these vets agree, and do it. Nowadays you might find that people recommend missile launchers. My point is that both are good - it's just a fashion. Someone comes along who thinks of a new way to use something and suddenly everyone does it, until someone else thinks of a counter and then everyone does that.

Before the net you wouldn't get that so much - new players would just build their armies from what seemed cool to them when they read their codex. I just think the net creates a sort of culture where most people build their army according to conventional wisdom, with a few people like SR who actually step back and think about what they want out of the game. I mean, I read in his water warrior thread that when he loses a game he doesn't go home and change his list. The first thing he does is examine his tactics. I think, largely because of the internet, 40k players place maybe too much emphasis on list building. People even say quite often that 40k is all about list building. I think list usage is very under-appreciated and you can easily make a "weak" army strong if you use it right.

Whoah, sorry I got way off topic...
 

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The water army is much more than simply a reactive army... it's also a control army.. best advice I can give you is just to read the tactica linked here; as it's written for pretty much any army and not GK specifics... It's written kind of strange, but it really does work... Odds are you'd probably come up with a water army in any case if you thought about an all comers list enough, and would probably use them similarly [as I did, imagine my surprise when I found that tactica;o... ].... The funny thing is that there is no REAL weakness in water armies; it's amazing how many "tailored" list I've beaten lol. If you're looking for an all comers list, that is THE type of list you want; IMO. ;Y Interestingly enough, most air armies are inherently also water armies... So don't be afraid to mix it up. :D

P.S. it's applications are not just for Daemon hunters.:ballon:

here's one specifically written for marines.

The Bolter and Chainsword - Librarium - Reaction, Control and Warfare : A 40k Space Marine Resource
 

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Water armies require a precise reading of the rules. I have only played in one store (as that is all that is available) and the tactics, such as pruning due to LOS, while certainly correct, are not frequently employed. Unfortunately there is not a strong core of players at the store where I am so many tactics like pruning become victims of a more casual interpretation of the rules. The focus of the players seems to favor a pleasant play experience as opposed to the conflict that LOS debates and the like generate.​
Perhaps when I move to Salem Mass I will find a better gaming group. I wonder if the rarity of a true water force is not due to the more laid back play style of many groups.​
However, reading these tacticas has certainly been eye opening. 40k battles often feel inevitable, for instance, I can't beat nidzilla. I am primarily a Guard player but I occaisionally branch out into GK. I am curious about how to apply water warrior doctrine to the notoriously earthy IG. Perhaps a deepstriking army could provide the flexibility that they lack. An infiltrating army might also have a similar benefit without loosing turns of shooting due to deepstriking.
 
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