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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,

I have difficulty determining what the Codex means by "type" when it states that the same "type" must be within 6" of the downed unit to get the WBB roll.

Is a Flayed One the same "type" as a Warrior?

Is a Destroyer the same "type" as a Heavy Destroyer (and the Destroyer Lord)?

What about the Wraiths?

Hope anyone can say, "Yeah Mike, those are the same types." Because as long as they are not, it's totally killing me out there! I'm talking 'Cron slaughter!

If they are not the same types, the Tomb Spyder is near useless. How often do you have another Heavy Destroyer another place at the map than in the same unit??

Mike
 

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every model is a different type

warrirosr are the only types of warirors

Desotryers are the only type of destroyers

Heavy destroyers ar the only type of Heavy destroyers

Wraiths are the only type of wraiths
 

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If they are not the same types, the Tomb Spyder is near useless. How often do you have another Heavy Destroyer another place at the map than in the same unit??

Mike
The heavy destroyer does'nt need to be in the same unit, even if a full unit is wiped out they still get WBB if there is a model of the same type within 6 inchs the tomb spyder just greatly extends this range and makes your army a little less clumsy.

Plus tomb spyders are awesome from a fluff and are actually quite good in gameplay. They are by far my favorite heavy support choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks:)

So you're fielding Tomb Spyders as one support unit and 2 units of heavy destroyers? Am I wrong?

How do you use Tomb Spyders in general?

Mike
 

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Thanks:)

So you're fielding Tomb Spyders as one support unit and 2 units of heavy destroyers? Am I wrong?

How do you use Tomb Spyders in general?

Mike
Tomb spyders extend te 6" rule to any model on the table.
Example: I have 2 squads of warriors completely at opposite ends of the table, unit 1 has a tomb spyder nearby and is wiped out. Normally they wouldn't get a WBB but since the tomb spyder is nearby and there are LIKE models anywhere on the table, that squad would get WBB (FYI they would also join the nearest squad as that squad no longer exists).

Personally I use tomb spyders in 2 ways, to extend WBB a bit, but also now a good counter charging unit. Plus you can field up to 3 and they count for only ONE heavy support choice, yet can all still move independantly like they were seperate! With the majority toughness rules in 5th, tomb spyders pop out ONE scarab and become a 5 wound T6 monstrous creature for DIRT cheap (even though their weapon skill sux, if they do land a blow though, WOO HOO!)
 

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...tomb spyders pop out ONE scarab and become a 5 wound T6 monstrous creature...
2 models halves the effective wounds. unless they are being done 1 at a time which I don't know any players that would.
 

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2 models halves the effective wounds. unless they are being done 1 at a time which I don't know any players that would.
5th edition changed how majority toughness reads. In case of EQUAL number of 'bases' it goes to the highest. So if your spyder just popped ONE scarab base out, that scarab base assumes T6 wounds too! So when you're spreading around your wounds give the no save bad stuff to the scarab base, and give your spyder the easier to save against stuff. Either way, you have a total of 2+3 (T6) wounds.
 

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5th edition changed how majority toughness reads. In case of EQUAL number of 'bases' it goes to the highest. So if your spyder just popped ONE scarab base out, that scarab base assumes T6 wounds too! So when you're spreading around your wounds give the no save bad stuff to the scarab base, and give your spyder the easier to save against stuff. Either way, you have a total of 2+3 (T6) wounds.
wounds not toughness.
yeah you have 5 wounds at T6 but its on 2 models, you apply 2 wounds off of a S6 AP5 weapon, one wound goes to the spyder that he porbably saves and the scarabs die from taking the wound (instant death)
sure they roll to wound on toughness 6, but the instant death for the assigned wound is based upon toughness of the model. same thing with template weapons, as soon as you assign it to the scarabs BAM 2 wounds.
don't get me wrong, its good...its so good its worth taking a wound for. but its not as good as having 2 spyders. the real difference is you have to pay for the second spyder, and the scarabs are free.
 

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No, the scarabs would have T6 as well, and would be negated by the majority toughness rule. The scarabs wouldn't get save a save because of your AP5 example (but don't die by instant death, just take 1 wound), but still qualify as having T6 and if it wasn't AP5 would get a save (say it was S6 AP-)...check the rules, there's a whole forum about it.

In essence 5th edition gave spyders a HUGE boost because of that majority toughness rule. You would have both models in a unit with T6, meaning double strength would not apply to the single scarab. However if you popped out a 2nd scarab base, the entire squad (spyder too) becomes T3 because the majority toughness becomes 3.
 

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No, the scarabs would have T6 as well, and would be negated by the majority toughness rule. The scarabs wouldn't get save a save because of your AP5 example (but don't die by instant death, just take 1 wound), but still qualify as having T6 and if it wasn't AP5 would get a save (say it was S6 AP-)...check the rules, there's a whole forum about it.

In essence 5th edition gave spyders a HUGE boost because of that majority toughness rule. You would have both models in a unit with T6, meaning double strength would not apply to the single scarab. However if you popped out a 2nd scarab base, the entire squad (spyder too) becomes T3 because the majority toughness becomes 3.
majority toughness is only taken into account for rolling to wound the unit. the model still has toughness 3, and when assigned a wound from a double toughness attack instant death takes effect.
you roll to wound on a toughness of 6 but apply the wound to a toughness 3 model.
 

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if you want to play it that way, that's fine. But assigning a wound of double toughness is a wound none the less. So it's basically a T6 scarab...period. But that's your call.
 

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if you want to play it that way, that's fine. But assigning a wound of double toughness is a wound none the less. So it's basically a T6 scarab...period. But that's your call.
I would say Djinni is right, the rules state that you are rolling to wound using T6, but it doesn't say that instant death is no longer in effect. In fact it explicitly states in the instant death rule that you use the base toughness, as in it will ignore stuff like being on a bike so I would assume it would ignore stuff like toughness majority wounds.
So it would still instantly die to a str 6 weapon, only that it wounds on a 4+ instead of 2+. I only bring it up again because I think it is a fairly important way of interpreting the rule, to interpret it as ignoring instant death smells cheesy to me.
 

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if you want to play it that way, that's fine. But assigning a wound of double toughness is a wound none the less. So it's basically a T6 scarab...period. But that's your call.
its not my call, that's the way the rules read.
 

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The way it reads to me, is clear. Double toughness is caused by the wound, at the time of the wound the bases toughness is 6, again..it's an interpretation.
 

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The way it reads to me, is clear. Double toughness is caused by the wound, at the time of the wound the bases toughness is 6, again..it's an interpretation.
instant death doesn't denote an expiration. it states suffered wound. it also states you have to keep the dice for different weapons seperate due to things like "instant death."
re-read all the sections page 19, 25-26 and you should see it.
 

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I'll read it, and i'm not disagreeing with how you explained it. I'm saying, at the time of applying said wound the scarabs base would be T6. But I'll check...being lazy today. This only applies if you have a single scarab spawned, the reverse would be true of the tomb spyder too if he spawned 2 scarab bases, his Toughness becomes 3.
 

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no law against bein lazy XD, of course however you want to play even if the rule specifically contradicts it (such as we allow chaos a free upgrade to units with the favored number). its all about having fun.
 

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I would be concerned with how this is considered in a competitive environment like a tournament.

One way of seeing it would have a Tomb Spyder + Scarab Swarm as a unit that is immune to normal instant death rules, also meaning Tomb Spyder + 2 Scarab Swarms are all instant killable by str 6 attacks.

The other way of seeing it means that Scarab Swarms are always vulnerable to instant death from str 6, also meaning that the Tomb Spyder is always immune to normal instant death. That is to say you would wound it on a 2+ with a str 6 attack (majority toughness of 3) but it'd only lose 1 wound instead of dying instantly because you are using the base toughness to judge instant death.


The first way means you would effectively make a 5 wound Tomb Spyder unless you make more than 1 swarm in which case you have an 8 wound unit of 3 scarab swarms.
The second way means it is actually worth while to crank out as many Scarab Swarms as possible, as your Tomb Spyder would still be immune to normal instant death rules, so in the case of 2 swarms plus Tomb Spyder you would effectively have an 8 wound unit of 3 scarab swarms but with one swarm that cannot be instantly killed.

So which way should it be? Does majority toughness mean that is the toughness that is used for instant death, or does instant death rules only ever apply to the base toughness despite what the majority toughness is?
 
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