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1) Can a Necron Lord with Res. orb use the Monolith to reroll the WBB if he failed his first WBB roll?
I recently fought against Blood Angels, and my Lord was killed with power weapons. He wasn't joined to another group and he failed his WBB roll. The Monolith was within 18" range, so could he have been teleportet through the Monolith and allowed an extra WBB roll, or does that only count if the Lord has joined a group of necron warriors etc?

2) The GWs FAQ regarding the Monolith:
"When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith."
Does this mean that powerfists weapons does not roll with strength 8 or 9 when hitting the Monolith but with the Marines basic strength 4?
What about grenades, do they get their full dice rolls against Monolith?
 

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hauser said:
1) Can a Necron Lord with Res. orb use the Monolith to reroll the WBB if he failed his first WBB roll?
I recently fought against Blood Angels, and my Lord was killed with power weapons. He wasn't joined to another group and he failed his WBB roll. The Monolith was within 18" range, so could he have been teleportet through the Monolith and allowed an extra WBB roll, or does that only count if the Lord has joined a group of necron warriors etc?
Yes, you could have teleported the lord through the monolith and get a extra WBB roll.

hauser said:
2) The GWs FAQ regarding the Monolith:
"When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith."
Does this mean that powerfists weapons does not roll with strength 8 or 9 when hitting the Monolith but with the Marines basic strength 4?
What about grenades, do they get their full dice rolls against Monolith?
in the faq they say that extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing, that concludes me that powerfists do nog double there scores.
(source: http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/faq/assets/necrons-faq-v4-0.pdf)
 

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Tdh6002 said:
in the faq they say that extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing, that concludes me that powerfists do nog double there scores.
(source: http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/faq/assets/necrons-faq-v4-0.pdf)
I disagree with your conclusion.

This is a discussion of semantics that GW could have spared us by just making a simple list of what works and what does not.

Here is the way I read the words.

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.
(Emphasis mine)

Notice the word "weapon". Any weapon attacking the monolith will use its unaugmented strength. As an example, a witchblade would attack the monolith with strength 3 instead of the usual strength 9 since the latter is achieved by multiplying the wielders strength.

However, a powerfist grants the wielder double strength. So in effect a powerfist is a weapon wielded by a strength 8 marine. A powerfist is not a strength 8 weapon, it is a weapon wielded by a guy with twice his normal strength. A witchblade on the other hand is a strength 9 weapon wielded by a strength 3 guy. Since the witchblade has a modified strength against anything with an armor value (three times the wielders strength) it falls victim to the monolith's special rule regarding living metal.

Similarly, a chainfist would still grant the wearer double strength against the monolith, but it would not gain the +1d6 bonus to armor penetration. A marine wielding a chainfist would thus "only" find himself attacking the monolith with str. 8 plus 1d6.

If a powerfist worked by giving the wearer double strength when, and only when, penetrating vehicles it would also fall victim to the living metal special rule since it would then be a bonus to penetration.

Also, I seem to recall a battlereport in WD where a dreadnought killed a monolith in cc. This would clearly not have been possible had the dreadnought been forced to use its unmodified strength of 6. But since it used a dreadnougth close combat weapon boosting its strength to 10 it was able to penetrate. I know the battlereports are not evidence per se, but it does add merit to my point by demonstrating that GW employees also follow the same logic.

Now if they would only put it in writing so we would know for sure. It is frustrating that such important rules for both necron players and their opponents are so very unclear.

Arizzar
 

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i had always assumed that the monolith took a S8 hit from powerfists... o well...


i have always played they are S 8 against the monolith. Thanks for making my future games THAT MUCH MORE COMPLICATED lol
 

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As I see it (now please note this is how I do things and do not wish to start the entire monolith debate) powerfists are strength 8 (well for a marine).

As it says unaguamented strength for the weapon, powerfists and witchblades supplement the users's strength, they don't have a S value like say, a lascannon.

So marines are S8 and witchblades make the wielder S9.

Thats how I see things.
 

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The_Outsider said:
As it says unaguamented strength for the weapon, powerfists and witchblades supplement the users's strength, they don't have a S value like say, a lascannon.


Thats how I see things.
But, the witchblade does not give the user strength 9. Only when he tries to penetrate a vehicle does the weapon count as strength 9. Therefore I see a difference between the two, and thats why I think witchblades are negated by the monolith.

Arizzar
 

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hmm, I still see the unaugmented part as the key. I just take the codex base value. So necrons, marines, and chaos normally hit the monolith on 6's and can't glance. The necrons have that nifty gauss rule and disruption fields that let them glance on a 6. So most of the time marines can only hurt the monolith with range weapons or some lucky rolls with melta bombs.

So if a marine player really wants to have that S4 marine use its augmented strength (from a power fist) I would have to accept some deals.

The reason I see power fists as a weapon that augments its users strength is because otherwise the marine would be S4. So if the only difference is the weapon he is equipped with, I would say the weapon is making him stronger. The dreadnought would not be able to kill that monolith, no matter how many cc weapons it has. Now if that dreadnought had a lascannon, that monolith better be careful.

Arizzar. How is tripling the users strength and doubling the users strength different? (besides the end result) If the witchblade cannot be used as S9, why would the power fist be any different? Besides, the power fist is a weapon with machines in it that make a S4 marine into a S8 marine (double strength actually). A witchblade has something (I have yet to play or even look at an eldar codex) that makes the wielder triple their strength to make the end result.

The_Outsider. I just looked up augment in a thesaurus. The #1 other word for augment is supplement. In my view it is essentially the same thing. While your welcome to play that way, make sure your opponents know and you both agree that witchblades can down a monolith with ease.
 

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Arizzar said:
I disagree with your conclusion.

This is a discussion of semantics that GW could have spared us by just making a simple list of what works and what does not.

Here is the way I read the words.

(Emphasis mine)

Notice the word "weapon". Any weapon attacking the monolith will use its unaugmented strength. As an example, a witchblade would attack the monolith with strength 3 instead of the usual strength 9 since the latter is achieved by multiplying the wielders strength...


Arizzar
Even though the powerfist is not a weapon (it's a kitchen utensil) I wouldn't give it S8, as the rule is worded. No CC weapons that can think of (notice, can think of..) has their own strength. They simply use that of the wielder. This would also includes the huge curling irons the S&M SoB wields. :rolleyes:
 

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Sleepy said:
The reason I see power fists as a weapon that augments its users strength is because otherwise the marine would be S4. So if the only difference is the weapon he is equipped with, I would say the weapon is making him stronger.
Yes, that was my point exactly.


The dreadnought would not be able to kill that monolith, no matter how many cc weapons it has. Now if that dreadnought had a lascannon, that monolith better be careful.
But the dreadnougth in WD was able to kill the monolith in cc.

Arizzar. How is tripling the users strength and doubling the users strength different? (besides the end result) If the witchblade cannot be used as S9, why would the power fist be any different?
It is different because a guy with a witchblade does not have strength 9. He has strength 3. When he tries to penetrate a vehicle the witchblade attacks with strength 9. This is a bonus to penetration, and thus negated by the monolith.

A marine with a powerfist has strength 8 all the time, not just when trying to make penetration rolls.

tolvmannen said:
Even though the powerfist is not a weapon (it's a kitchen utensil) I wouldn't give it S8, as the rule is worded. No CC weapons that can think of (notice, can think of..) has their own strength. They simply use that of the wielder.
Yes, that is the point. A powerfist does not have a strength value. It is wielded by a guy who has.

Arizzar
 

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yes, but a powerfist also sais that is doubles the strength of a model and doubling something is a augmenttation.
 

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Firstly, I would like to enwuire as to whether anybody knows of any weapons which double their penetration roll score.

If such weapons do not exist, then the PF does not double its strength against the monolith. End of. As is called 'doubling scores' in the FAQ.

If such weapons do exist, and please say if they do, then the matter is again thrown into turmoil.

The conclusion that has been reached before is that bonus penetration is something which would not be a bonus if it were not against tanks: e.g. bright lances are better against tanks than infantry, Zzap gunz have 2D6 AP against vehicles, but not against infantry. However, a Str. 10 weapon is just as good against infantry as it is against tanks. This is the way that I am inclined to see it.

As has been said before, the PF doubles the user's strength, rather than atacks with twice the users strength, which is a different matter.
 

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What if a marine player had both a power fist and a power sword on the same model? It is a completely legal build but the marine player would have to decide which weapon to use each turn. By your argument the power fist would double the marine's strength when using the power sword! This is simply not the case. If the marine uses the PF then his STR is 8. If he uses the PS then hist STR is 4. If this isn't the case then every maring sergeant would have both a PF and PS to remove the detriment to the hidden powerfist maneuver.

Thus a power fist wielded by a marine with a STR 4 attacks as if he had a STR 8 (if he uses the PF). This is augmented strength any way you look at it and will therefore NOT double the STR of the model weilding it. This is the same as the Eldar Witchblades. However, dreadnought CCW are different with 4th edition. They aren't classified as power weapons any more so they simply raise the models statline STR to 10. These can effect the monolith as normal.

The monolith is intentionally difficult to kill. It must be taken out with heavy weapons and that's about it. I have found it no more difficult to kill than an Eldar Falcon with the appropriate upgrades. It can only fire a single weapon per turn, the maximum weapon range is only 24", and it moves dreadfully slow. Just ignore it and go for phase-out. Or you can continue to argue a point that has been argued countless times in this forum and won't be resolved until GW revises their FAQ or hell freezes over. Personally I'd check the temperature in hell every morning.
 

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LordCreampuff said:
What if a marine player had both a power fist and a power sword on the same model? It is a completely legal build but the marine player would have to decide which weapon to use each turn. By your argument the power fist would double the marine's strength when using the power sword! This is simply not the case. If the marine uses the PF then his STR is 8. If he uses the PS then hist STR is 4. If this isn't the case then every maring sergeant would have both a PF and PS to remove the detriment to the hidden powerfist maneuver.

Thus a power fist wielded by a marine with a STR 4 attacks as if he had a STR 8 (if he uses the PF). This is augmented strength any way you look at it and will therefore NOT double the STR of the model weilding it. This is the same as the Eldar Witchblades. However, dreadnought CCW are different with 4th edition. They aren't classified as power weapons any more so they simply raise the models statline STR to 10. These can effect the monolith as normal.
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That is a damn good point.

This proves that it isn't an item or weapon which alters the marine's base strength, but that attacks made with it get the strength bonus. Which counts as an augmentation. Which doesn't work against the 'lith!

Where's that rep star!
 

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Thanks Lord Cream Puff. I hadn't even thought of using the power fist and power sword combo as an example.

So the dreads in 4'th now can take down monoliths, OK. I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that they don't because the extra arm (or whatever they use) doubles their strength the same way as a power fist, but I doubt they could get close enough. Dropping a pie plate on it for as many turns as I can back up is a nice way to kill a dread.

Isn't that in the rule book? or marine FAQ? That the dread can't get a weapon that is over S10 because of its add-on that doubles its strength? Yes, it is in the rule book. Page 73 says that dreads close combat weapons double their strength, so it is just like a power fist.

Even if it could hurt a monolith, the lith has a nearly unlimited turns of attempting to drop a pie plate on it. Just back up and hope your roll a hit.
 

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Ive never actually seen a dread try and take on a monolith with its DCCW, however, as far as I know, both powerfists and DCCW's do not get their strength bonuses when attacking the monolith.
 

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Sleepy said:
Thanks Lord Cream Puff. I hadn't even thought of using the power fist and power sword combo as an example.

So the dreads in 4'th now can take down monoliths, OK. I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that they don't because the extra arm (or whatever they use) doubles their strength the same way as a power fist, but I doubt they could get close enough. Dropping a pie plate on it for as many turns as I can back up is a nice way to kill a dread.

Isn't that in the rule book? or marine FAQ? That the dread can't get a weapon that is over S10 because of its add-on that doubles its strength? Yes, it is in the rule book. Page 73 says that dreads close combat weapons double their strength, so it is just like a power fist.

Even if it could hurt a monolith, the lith has a nearly unlimited turns of attempting to drop a pie plate on it. Just back up and hope your roll a hit.
The dreadnought CCW is now a different classification than a powerfist. Older codex (Eldar comes to mind) they described the dreadnought CCW as a powerfist but the BGB changed that. I believe the dreadnought CCW now increases the dreadnought statline STR to 10, not simply doubling it as a powerfist does. I'm not 100% sure on this though. But if I am correct then dreadnoughts would hit the monolith with a STR of 10.
 

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LordCreampuff said:
The dreadnought CCW is now a different classification than a powerfist. Older codex (Eldar comes to mind) they described the dreadnought CCW as a powerfist but the BGB changed that. I believe the dreadnought CCW now increases the dreadnought statline STR to 10, not simply doubling it as a powerfist does. I'm not 100% sure on this though. But if I am correct then dreadnoughts would hit the monolith with a STR of 10.
Yes, it would be 10.

There are MANY weapons out there which increase strength and it is already included in the stat line usually in parenthesis.

That means if Indep Char X were to have a base Str of 7, and the statline said 7 (8 ) it would be 8 + D6 for armor penetration.

The dreadnought is exactly like that when it has its CCW. So it would only need a 4 to glance if it hit with it.

IMO these strength upgrades would be appropriate against the Monolith (regardless of it could actually do any damage):
- Combat drugs
- Toxin sacs

The following would not be:
- Power fist/claw, Eviscator, etc.

And the iffy I-am-not-sure:
- Hand of the Emperor

I think the key is do these strength upgrades happen during the swing or not.
 
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