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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok situation arose recently which we couldn't figure out. Here's what happened,

I had a warphead in a battlewagon just for laughs. I moved the battlewagon 12" opting to not fire any guns.
However when it came to rolling the weirdboyz power, I rolled a 1 which I opted to re-roll and got a 3.

So the problem is that the rulebook says embarked units can't fire but the codex says the weirdboy MUST use the power.

My opponent says that the power cannot resolve because he had a landraider within range that was gonna get hurt
but I said that it should because I could see his landraider within range that was gonna get hurt .

What happens?
 

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Formerly Prince of Excess
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He must use the power if able I think it means. He can't just break the rules for firing from a vehicle because he has to use a power. There are other must rules that are ignored, like if a Penitent Engine is Immobilized it can't move towards the nearest enemy unit, it's Immobilized.
 
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Formerly Prince of Excess
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No....I'm saying he can't. My example was pretty clear I'm voting towards a no go.

Codex says he MUST use the power. You now have to use it. Okay, so now that you must, you check to see if you CAN. You moved 12", so no, you may not. The must means he must do it if he can, but the 12" rule blocks him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
oh ok. I went the other way with two assumptions
firstly codex over rules rulebook
secondly that it would seem right from a fluff point of view
 

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Formerly Prince of Excess
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Man if this game had things that were right from a fluff PoV it'd be almost unplayable.

I'm not concrete on this but Rulebook is the standard unless the Codex implies or states otherwise. The word must contradicts nothing in the Rules though, so I'm about 97.6% sure you can't do it.
 

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Prince is right. It's actually clearer if you think of it this way:

Logically, an embarked unit can fire (assuming it was a real world situation) no matter how fast the vehicle is going. All they have to do is stick their arm out the window and pull the trigger. However, this doesn't mean they're going to hit anything.

If you're moving over 6in, even if your unit was forced to fire (for example, the weirdboyz's power, or some other bizarre rule), they simply aren't going to hit anything. Just imagine the psychic blast shooting randomly upwards, into the sky.

So yes, you do shoot, but you immediately fail to hit anything.

In general, if you have one rule that says you must do something, and another rule saying you can't, then you can't. Generally, 'must' only means that you can't willingly choose to do anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ok I think both of you rock but I think in this case you might be wrong from a RAW viewpoint and a fluff viewpoint.

Rulebook does state somewhere that codex rules supersede it.

Codex states that the weirdboy MUST use the power.
I can accept the idea that he must fire but wildly misses however...

The codex for the shooting attacks 'Frazzle' and 'Zzap' specifies that the target is automatically hit.

As an alternative if the controlling player rolls 1 for eadbanger or even if perils of the warp are rolled what happens?

It seems unfair that all the negatives would occur but none of the positives!!!
 

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I still say he can't. The word must =/= can. He must if he is able, no where in the Codex does it say "Oh and there's an exception for this that and the other."

If you read the FAQ it actually clarifies, and I quote.

Does a Weirdboy embarked on a vehicle still roll for his powers? If so can you clarify what happens in all cases?

He stills rolls for his powers and the effects are as follows:
Frazzle: Fire from the vehicle following the normal rules for passenger firing.
Zzap: Fire from the vehicle following the normal rules for passenger firing.

Like I said, must means he MUST do it if he is allowed, he is not. The Codex over-rides the rulebook in very specific scenarios which are laid out, this is not such a scenario.

In this case, the negatives do count is you move 12". If you move 0-6", you get both.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
AHA!
My erstwhile opponent went looking for a rules clarification to prove me wrong and he ended up proving me right!

I forgot in all my bellyaching to check the official faq errata thingy from GW which i haven't read in months.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810080_Orks_FAQ_2007_5th_Edition.pdf

It covers this exact situation but still does not specify what happens if the controlling player chooses to move the vehicle at combat speed. But I think it appears to be in spirit and RAW that the weirdboy must use his power and if lucky enough to get a 2 or 3 then they get an automatic hit.

Had I popped that L R the game could have gone so differently.
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To Prince,
It also says
(though they include a few
exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as
specified in their description).
 

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Ok I think both of you rock but I think in this case you might be wrong from a RAW viewpoint and a fluff viewpoint.
I'm sorry, but those aren't valid viewpoints.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: in 5th edition, there is no such thing as RAW. RAW is just something players say when they don't want to play by the rules.

You can do anything you and your friends agree to in private games, but if you go to a tournament or an official game and start saying that 'the official GW errata doesn't count', and you'll be laughed right out of the store.

Yes, the codex does supersede the main rulebook, but the errata supersedes the codex. In effect, the FAQ and errata is explaining what the codex is supposed to mean, but for some reason (usually because of odd wording) players can't come to an agreement on. The errata and FAQ are literally supposed to replace the wording in the codex.

So no, you can't fire the warp 'eads powers if the vehicle moved over 6in, as per the errata.
 

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Formerly Prince of Excess
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Well personally I wouldn't let you do it, I see no evidence to say you can except vague sentences. Maybe someone else would like to weigh in.

Thanks grax.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
the faq also states in reference to Frazzle and Zzap,
(though they include a few
exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as
specified in their description).


The exceptions they specify are
1. must resolve
2. automatically hit

It seems to me that the faq is not vague at all.
 

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Dude you're ignoring the most important part of what it says to further your own ends. You CANNOT SHOOT. If you COULD it would resolve and auto-hit which is great. But you fire AS A NORMAL PASSENGER, nothing special in that regards. That roadblocks you entirely from shooting in anyway, whatsoever.

This is pretty laid out. You're right with what you're saying but you're ignoring the part where you still can't shoot....
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
OK assuming you are both right(which i still dispute)
If a player has a weirdboy, warphead or Zogwort embarked on a vehicle,
Moving at cruising speed will result in the following actions
roll psychic test, Perils of warp = takes a wound
Psychic power roll
1: Vehicle takes a strength 6 hit on rear armor.
2: Nothing happens
3: Nothing happens
4: Warpath
5. ere we go
6. waagh

What happens if you use zogwort's power at cruising speed?

I'm not disputing to further my own ends since the game in question is over and these kind of rule issues come up all the time. I just want to know the correct way of playing if the situation arises again.
 

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This is getting ridiculous. I'll just end my part in this conversation by saying that I agree with Prince on this matter. Can't trumps can, and so when 'must shoot' meets 'can't shoot', the unit can't shoot. 'Must' simply means that if you have a choice, that's the choice you must make.

Let's move on.
 

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I just read the errata that was linked to previously and it says that he would use his powers as a passenger would normally fire a weapon. In this case with the Battlewagon moving 12in he can't shoot because the rules don't allow passengers to shoot weapons if a vehicle moves over 6in. It's pretty clear when you read it. To totally disregard that statement in the errata and say he use his powers is just being ignorant at this point.
 
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