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OM NOM NOM
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It seems that it doesn't make sense that grenades can be used to keep the enemie's heads down before an assault, but it doesn't do any actual damage to the unit being fired upon. When i play with my friends, we say that a squad with grenads gets one small template attack, with varying strength depending on the type of grenade. for example, if my squad of space marines were to assault a unit with the aid of it's frag grenades, it would get one small template s4, ap5,
range 2xstrength attack angainst the unit they are chargin angainst. This would also apply to assaulting vehicles, as something as powerful as a meltabomb for example wouldn't need to be placed in a weak spot to do sufficient damage; it would be powerful enough to attack the vehicle form the surface.

Please feel free to reply with any comments and/or suggestions.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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frag grenades imply Fragmentasions, but i always more looked at it as 'flashbangs' or smokegrenades...:| makes more sence with the rule... But the Meltabomb is not THAT good! Aint gonna do a lot of good on the shell of a leman russ!!!:sleep:
 

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Bit of a bad example but it may help.

I know people that have been ‘fragged’ in real life and they have still been able to carry on the fight. Fragmentation grenades aren't really that powerful to be honest, they're mostly for disorientation or like the rule suggests, to pin people down.
 

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Pure Venom.
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You could say that a portion of the combat casualties were actually killed by grenades, and if there were no casualties, the grenade went wide. As for the whole melta bomb thing, they need to be clamped down in a decent position as i believe they're somewhat like thermite charges, except they explode - they burn a few inches through the armour, then blow it up from the inside.

LoC
 

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Though of course there are grenades that do damage. Krak grenades do so. The idea I had for the (Space) Skaven Grenadiers had damage-doing grenades.


Tai'shar
 

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OM NOM NOM
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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
well yeah, i geuss i was exagerating with the melta bombs.

but really though, something like a frag grenade actually has usually a distance of around 7 meters or more (more than ordnance) of its total explosion area, but it's actually kill zone is about 3 meters in diameter (about a small blast template to scale).

Something i think would really be interesting would be if grenades could be used like normal shooting weapons. It's common to see people throw a grenade just to distract an enemy so they can get to cover, so i think if you throw a grenade at a particular unit, it should require a pinning test. If this was in effect, more of the shooty units in an army would bring grenades, so if an enemy was charging, you could possibly stop it with a well placed (or lucky) grenade in their ranks

Oh, and about "the actual casualties caused by the grenade is considered to be part of the combat" doesn't really make sense. If this were true, than it would be that all of the cc oriented units would have super killing machine grenades, as your average tau FW for example would have something less effective than a flashbang for actually killing people.

Besides, grenade launchers get to do actual damage. we all know that regualr grenades are about the same as a grenade in a grenade launcher, so why can't we give them the same effects (apart from the grenade launchers longer range)?

And about melta bombs being clamped in a decent area, it is possible for a grenade to hit somewhere important when being thrown (inside the main cannon, fireing ports tank treads ect. ect.). so maybe if throwing a grenade at a vehicle, you could only score a hit on a 6. sounds pretty fair to me. of course, you could subsequently run up to the vehicle and plant a grenade on it.
 

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Pure Venom.
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Indeed, but you have to remember that the effect kill radius of one of our time's frag grenades aren't measured against 41st millenium armour. I heard it stated somewhere that power armour is actually invulnerable to shrapnel - so frag grenades will do little against space marines, and that they'll still probably ping off of eldar mesh armour and the like. I personally think we don't need any grenade rules - they just serve to make the game more complicated. The grenades as they are will have to be increased in points to make up for the explosion, removing them from their classic role as a "space-filler", and i believe grenades in general were designed to be thrown during assaults - as such they aren't going to be so powerful, due to the fact that the charging squad will be running straight into the explosion. But it's a nice idea, although i'd say that it would work better in things like kill team.

LoC
 

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cc kills

You know, you could count grenades as giving an extra CC attack or two before the combat starts. Think about it. Grenades are most useful at wounding stationary targets (i.e. those that can't just jump away) and in confined spaces, so they would be useable only into cover. Armor should still be taken into effect, so leave the saves alone. Maybe krak or melta explosives could have AP, though.

Actually, maybe it should be an automatic hit. So you would do a wound check and then armor saves. That would probably make more sense.

You know, the more I think about this the more I like it. Frag grenades would be cheap, probably two or three hits, but low penetration. Krak grenades would have fewer attacks but higher strength and some AP for heavy infantry. Photon grenades would force a disorientation check of some kind. I think I have some rules to test.
 

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Sjt Mortison said:
Bit of a bad example but it may help.

I know people that have been ‘fragged’ in real life and they have still been able to carry on the fight. Fragmentation grenades aren't really that powerful to be honest, they're mostly for disorientation or like the rule suggests, to pin people down.
Man thats harsh to even think about. I dont thik anything could scare me worse than that in a warzone. Its so close and personal.

I guess the whole Idea in game terms is to just say some of the casualties were killed of with grenades.
 

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Frag grenades, while they actually can hurt people, typically don't. The blast radius is extremely small and actually quite weak. Shrapnel is easy to dodge if one is in cover.

Krak grenades and melta bombs are both shaped charges, which means they're actually quite useless in this context. They explode, but do so in a very small, concentrated blast. They certainly wouldn't be able to use a template of any size. The only real way to use those would be strap it to somebody in close combat (imagine a guardsmen fighting a chaos marine pegging the marine with the melta bomb as some last ditch weapon). Maybe to reflect this, you could not have any attacks one turn, but instead roll a to hit, and if they are hit then you're strength is equal to that of the meltabomb...?
 

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Ubernyaw said:
The only real way to use those would be strap it to somebody in close combat (imagine a guardsmen fighting a chaos marine pegging the marine with the melta bomb as some last ditch weapon). Maybe to reflect this, you could not have any attacks one turn, but instead roll a to hit, and if they are hit then you're strength is equal to that of the meltabomb...?
Not a bad idea.. But..

Meltabombs, as I understand it, are big and heavy, being designed for serious demolition work. They're also magnetic, which means they wouldn't adhere to ceramic marine armour (or Tyranid hide, or anything like that.)

Krak Grenades, on the other hand, can be thrown (they're just unlikely to do anything) are small enough to wedge into places (or coat with adhesive and stick on a suit of armour) and so forth.. so they might work like this. There's actually a game precedent, since Tyranid Nid Hunters can use their krak grenades as close combat weapons.

The implication is though, that it's a weapon of the highly skilled, or the highly desperate. It can't be as good as suggested, otherwise everyone would be using it all the time.
 

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The_Giant_Mantis said:
Not a bad idea.. But..

Meltabombs, as I understand it, are big and heavy, being designed for serious demolition work. They're also magnetic, which means they wouldn't adhere to ceramic marine armour (or Tyranid hide, or anything like that.)

Krak Grenades, on the other hand, can be thrown (they're just unlikely to do anything) are small enough to wedge into places (or coat with adhesive and stick on a suit of armour) and so forth.. so they might work like this. There's actually a game precedent, since Tyranid Nid Hunters can use their krak grenades as close combat weapons.

The implication is though, that it's a weapon of the highly skilled, or the highly desperate. It can't be as good as suggested, otherwise everyone would be using it all the time.

yeah, that's probably why it's called a melta BOMB and not a melta grenade. And I agree, about the krak's being a more logical choice in close combat, and also about neither being typical close combat weapons.
 

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Ubernyaw said:
Frag grenades, while they actually can hurt people, typically don't. The blast radius is extremely small and actually quite weak.
Is that right?! How do you know? Been blown up by a hand grenade recently? Perhaps you'd like to volunteer for a little experiment?!...

If actual fragmentation grenades are so crap, why bother inventing flash-bangs, which are the proper non-lethal stun grenades... I'd put money on frag grenades being very dangerous if one goes off right near you, especially since they consist of a lump of high explosive surrounded by a thick metal shell.
Admittedly grenades are more dangerous when they explode in confined spaces (hence their common use of bunker clearing), but I'd bet even in an open space they would still be highly likely to cause nasty injuries and possibly death if the shrapnel hit you in the wrong place (like the head, or an artery).

I'm amazed no-one's actually mentioned the fact that in the second edition of Warhammer 40,000 proper exploding template grenades were available for pretty much all troops (except tyranids and daemons of course). In fact, most troops carried frag grenades as standard, and there was a multitude of other grenade types that squads could have access to for various tactical eventualities. Anti-Plant for clearing vegetation, Blind which was an advanced form of smoke, Choke which could kill unprotected troops, etc.

I think there was two reasons that the game designers got rid of grenades in the proper context; first they were dumbing down the rules and ditching the throwing of grenades was one more step towards this end, and second, few people ever actually remembered to use their frag grenades anyway! (although most players rarely forgot about the other grenades that they'd spent points on, like meltabombs, Krak and Plasma)

The_Giant_Mantis said:
Meltabombs, as I understand it, are big and heavy, being designed for serious demolition work.
Finally, in the good old days (ie. 40k second ed), you could indeed use both Krak and meltabombs (which were also grenade sized btw, you guys are probably thinking of the much larger Demolition Charge) in close combat. All you needed was a successful hit in close combat and you could stick a highly dangerous explosive charge to your opponent, and watch with amusement as he exploded seconds later! Many troops used meltabombs and Krak grenades in this way, Assault Marines and Eversor Assassins for example.
 

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OM NOM NOM
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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
by the way, if you check the summary sections of some imperial armies, you can see that grenade launchers can fire krak or frag grenades. frag are s4 ap6 small blast, and krak are s6 ap4.

in responce to tzeencht lord, the actual death rate caused by frag grenades is'nt exactly high. of course, the injury and incapacitation rate is very high, so you could just say that some of the men killed by the grenades were simply too wounded to fight any more.
 

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Tzeentch Lord said:
Is that right?! How do you know? Been blown up by a hand grenade recently? Perhaps you'd like to volunteer for a little experiment?!...

actually... lol

Seriously though, the real damage caused by frag grenades is from shrapnel, and that's thoroughly unreliable, and only really useful in confined spaces where a person can't run from it too well. Which is why they're used for assaulting cover. And I know this because.... well, let's not get into that :yes: (boredom+access to explosives=bad)
 
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