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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm having a ton of trouble winning against my roomies Black Templar army (in fact, I've yet to win - the best I've managed is a draw). My biggest problem is the Land Raider Crusader that has High Marshal Helbrecht, 10 initiates (regular space marines with BP+CCW) and 4 neophytes (scouts w/ BP+CCW). I can't reliably stop/destroy it with the Exorcists because of the high armor value. The hurricane bolters are fairly effective in keeping meltabombs away from it too. On the occasions when I do manage to stop it, I can't really deal with the 15 marines inside effectively. I can kill a bunch with some flamers, but my flamer squad dies in the next shooty/assaulty phase. In addition, he fields a venerable dreadnought (w/ tank hunter), and two 5 man marine squads with lascannons.

The only thing I can think of is to use two squads, one with meltas and the other with flamers to pop the LRC and burn the squad inside, but if I get a lil bit unlucky, I find myself with alot of dead Sisters.

Here's the list I've been fielding (1700pts)
St. Celestine
Cannoness (Jump, IP, Evisc, Cloak of St.Asp)
9 Repentias + Mistress + Priest (Purity Seals, Power Weap)
9 Sisters (2 SB) + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in a Rhino (Smoke, EA)
9 Sisters (2 Fl) + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in a Rhino (Smoke, EA)
5 Seraphim (2 Fl) + Vet Superior (BP, PW)
4 Retributors (4 HvB) + Imagifer + Vet Superior (PP, CC) mounted in an Immolator (TL HvB, EA)
2 Exorcists (EA)

Since he's started including Helbrecht in the 15 man squad, I haven't found much use for the jumpy Canoness.

Here's what he normally fields:
Helbrecht, 10 initiates, 4 neophytes mounted in the LRC
2x 5 marines with lascannons (or sometimes one with a plasma cannon (which is terrifying to T3 models))
venerable tank hunter dreadnought with TL lascannons and missile launcher
5 termies, assault cannon, cyclone missile launcher
some assault marines (6-9)
land speeder and landspeeder typhoon

Anyhoo, I'm starting to get disheartened at losing so many times to this configuration. Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction to getting more draws (or, gawd forbid, wins).
 

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There's a battle report similar to this where the BT player got taken apart. The problem with your list is that you have too much tied up in cc characters and repentia. Sisters fighting in cc with BT is playing to their strength, not yours. You need to radically rework your list.

1. Drop St. Celestine and all the Repentia. They get shot up badly or just outclassed in cc.

2.Give the Canoness the blessed weapon and direct her onto those las/plas squads in conjunction with the Seraphim.

3. Add in more Seraphim and Battle Sisters. Expand the Seraphim squads. He has very few bodies on the field and many vehicles, make sure you outnumber him.

4. Get heavy flamers and flamers, they make a mess of marines in conjunction with DG. Drop the SB's, they're worthless against marines (this has been statistically proven). Drop the HB Immo, it's not effective v Marines (few shots and they can't be made to pierce the armour).

5. Shoot the Exo's not at his LRC, which they can't hurt, but at his Dread, Speeders, Termis and Assault Marines, which they can. Cut down that supporting fire and assault! Be sure to concentrate on one of these at a time to be sure you eliminate it. Use them in conjunction with the Retribs using DG to really slash to pieces his Assaults and Termis, which are above all their priority targets. Assault is much more dangerous to Sisters than shooting.

6. Concentrate not on that big LRC and cargo, but on all the supporting units. Use Jump Packs and Rhinos to avoid and obstruct it. It's just too big and tough. It will soak up damage while still dishing it out, allowing the rest of his army a free ride.

You have the basis of a good army, but it does need amendment if it to play optimally against an opponent like the BT's. Don't butt heads with this army, use mobility to avoid it and take it apart piecemeal.

There are other army lists that work against BT's, but they tend to be very different to your current list. You really just need too expand and better balance your force.
 

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yes, i have a battle report very similar in the battle reports section.

but here's what to do...

Get your seraphim (with eviscerator and meltabombs) into cc with one of his forward or side deployed units. At the end of his turn hit and run towards the crusader. Then with the additional 12" move and 6" assault, you should be able to completely bypass his hurricane bolters and TLAC. and if you have enough room you can cover the access points so when you blow up his LRC, insta-killing all the occupoants.

(moving towards one of his units ahead/ont he flank of the LRC will fake him out thinking the seraphim are going after them which will catch him off guard with the "catapult".)

also, repentia will make paste of his dread so charge at it as he can kill a max of like 2 repentia a turn as you charge.

hope this helps.
 

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@Caeti: You guys really like your special characters! I agree with a lot of the advice you've recieved but I'm going to give you some different feedback (some on your list and some on your tactics). Honestly, I think you can take him with a couple of changes.

List Feedback:
HQ
1. At 1700pts, I would lose St Celestine (love the model!) and get a decked out Jump Canoness.

ELITE
2. Lose the Repentia. Put them on your shelf and remember them fondly -- they should never be put on the table again.

TROOPS
3. Lose ALL of the transports. He's coming to you. You don't need them at all.
4. Each SoB squad should have 2 Meltaguns (no flamers and no stormbolters). Put a Bolter on the VSS.
5. If you have ISTs, you should have one or two squads (each with 2 Plasma Guns). If you don't, then add a 3rd squad of SoBs.

FAST
6. You need 10 Seraphim. Keep them out of sight until you pop the LRC. That unit plus the Canoness will tear up his command squad.

HEAVY
7. You need 3 Exorcists.

TACTICS:
Exorcists can move and shoot their EMLs. Put them out of sight (in case your opponent gets the first turn). Move them 6" to get line of sight on the LRC. Move your Canoness/Seraphim out of sight where you can charge on your next turn (so ~18" away behind cover).

Since EMLs are AP1, each exorcist has a 38% chance of penetrating a LRC (and a 19% chance of destroying it). With 3 Exorcists, you have a 58% chance of destroying it on the first round. Not bad. (Even if you don't destroy it, you're likely to get a penetration. As soon as you score a penetration, the guys inside are forced to disembark.)

Once you destroy it, the guys inside are entangled. This means they are meat for the Seraphim. Use DG and your flamers (I recommend a Brazier on the VSS so you get 3 flamer templates). The flamers will take care of 7 Initiates. The TL Bolters will take care of a Neophyte. That leave Helbrect, 3 Initiates and 3 Neophytes to take a charge from a Canoness and 10 Seraphim.

Assault keeping your Canoness out of base to base with Helbrect. Using The Passion on your Canoness and Seraphim, you should wipe them out before they have a chance to attack back. Helbrect will survive with a wound or two left, but will die in the next round (with almost no casualties thanks to Spirit of the Martyr). If he doesn't, you will H&R and shoot him down.
 

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mkerr makes some good points especialy the repentia (man they suck!) and personally i beleive no one should feild celestine ever as she's dead (specifically atomised) but thats me i like my games to follow fluff.

i like your list but i would drop the jumpack from the canoness as if you put her in the seraphim squad they lose there greatest str which is the hit and run rule. if you truly have trouble with the heavy vehicles then maybe consider a stripped down domminion squad keep it cheap and expendable that way it won't matter if in the following turn he turnsthem into mulch. apart from that with stuff like this it would be best to jus ignore it if you take down the rest of his army then it dosn't matter whats in the tank as there is no way he could win with a single squad.
 

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Caeti,

No disrespect intended, but I don't see why this is such a striggle for you. Judging by your folly, I'm going to guess that you really don't understand Seraphim. All you need is more Seraphim with Str8 2D6 AP weapons. THe LR and LR then becomes a total liability.

In fact you shoudl have 2 Squads of Seraphim with 8 models each for greater sustainabilty.
Your Seraphim should also be divine guiding any flamers at Marines they can get their hands on, charge, jump back and let your battle sisters double tap their bolters with divine guidance. You might even put a flamer amongst your troops.

WHy 2 Exorcists? I bet they never pay for themselves. Drop one and redirect the points to Seraphim.

If you can find the points, take 1 squad of say 8 Grey KNights in case he gets in too close. Don't give any one else any CC weapons, except maybe a couple of jumping Eviscerators that can finish off the tank if the Inferno Pistol Whiffs.

You should be beating him consistently.
I just killed an entire BT army down to one last man.
I lost 1 squad.

I told him to never take a LR against me again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm definately gonna put the Repentia on the shelf permanently (I love the models though *sniffle*) and Celestine will definately not be fielded at 1700 points. Between the two, I can get another 10 sisters in a rhino and a small dominion squad. My only problem with using the Seraphim to pop the LRC is that they then get caught by the 15 man squad that comes out of it - I doubt they'd survive a single CC turn. If I drive a rhino and an immolator up to it, I could use a melta gun in one squad to pop the LRC, and then use the other squad and immolator to put a ton of templates and faith on the squad that pops out (including Helbrecht). If I can't get that work, I think I'll do as mkerr suggests - lose the vehicles, and pick up some more seraphim and another exorcist.

gen.nehring, are 10 seraphim enough to cover all the access points on a land raider without breaking formation?
 

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Caeti said:
My only problem with using the Seraphim to pop the LRC is that they then get caught by the 15 man squad that comes out of it - I doubt they'd survive a single CC turn.
No No No Sir!

You're going to Explode that vehile, and a third (or more) of them are going to die.
Or they might be entangled. PLus the Seraphim can jump back. They'll take some hits, but they'll definitely survive.
 

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Caeti said:
gen.nehring, are 10 seraphim enough to cover all the access points on a land raider without breaking formation?
Definetly, especially with a good catapult. Just remember you have to be assaulting the nearest side so you have to surround it in the movement phase.

But this is just a bonus, a cataoult on average will yield about 10" plus 18 more in your turn, assault w/ a S8 eviscerator = dead LRC and an entagled that is easy meat next turn
 

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mkerr said:
Wow, I've never heard that statement. Ever. My exorcists always pay for themselves. If I could take more, I would.
hmm, I cant understand why you dont use the exorcists on the LRC, they are capable of taking it out!

Using serephim is attractive but risky, I would do the re-ord as described by many others, I would then open up with the exorcists at the LRC, when it pops, your foot squads open up with divine guidance on what gets out, if possible, within rapid fire range, assuming say 12 bolters in each squad, that is 28 shots, that is 32 hits, this equates to 16 wounds, 5 of which ignore armour, should drop his 15 strong squad to a mroe manageble 6 or so, then send in the cannoness to deal with helbrecht (if she dont kill him she should nock a couple of woulds off) and the serephim to deal withthe remaining 5 marines, sure you ahve deflected a fair amount of fire power, but the points values are in your favour as are the statistics
 

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mkerr said:
My exorcists always pay for themselves.
If this is the truth, then I think you have a limited experience.
With the increace of the porfitability of tank-hunting in 4th ED, most armies find it profitable to tool up for tank hunting. Almost every Marine list is capable of shutting it down by turn 3.

So with 3 turns of shooting, you'll statisticly kill about 90 points worth of Marines (at 15 points each). That falls far short of its cost.

I'm not trying to say that it's good nor bad.
I am saying that taking an Exorcist is definitely not guaranteed to pay its points back. A single Exorcist adds functionality that is probably worth having, even if it doesn't return its full value. But a second or third Exorcist can be signifiant liability vs many armies. It greatly depends upon whom you face. But there is no shortage of tank-hunting weapons these days.
 

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Taking an exorcist is just as "risky" as taking anything in 40K. For example, and exorcist can easily make it's points up by taking out a LR in the first turn. Likewise, it itself can be taken out just as easily/flukely. There's been countles times that my LR has blown up 1st turn, but also other times where it pwns the enemy. It's a risk that i'm willing to take.
 

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absorbing heavy fire during three turn is actually earning lots of points, even if the poor tank does not kill many things before being toasted.

Always difficult cost/effectivenes evaluation is.
 

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risk is not just a matter of getting blown up or not, it also inculdes what you can blow up and more importantly for my sisters, whilst he is blowing up both my exorcists, he aint touching my rhinos
 

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Red Zinfandel said:
If this is the truth, then I think you have a limited experience.
With the increace of the porfitability of tank-hunting in 4th ED, most armies find it profitable to tool up for tank hunting. Almost every Marine list is capable of shutting it down by turn 3

So with 3 turns of shooting, you'll statisticly kill about 90 points worth of Marines (at 15 points each). That falls far short of its cost.
Not that it matters, but I've played 40K and Sisters for many years.

I'm not sure if you meant portability or profitability when you said "porfitability", but I don't find that tank-hunting has changed much since 3E. I'll concede that any list is capable of destroying a single Exorcist in 3 turns. I don't think anyone would argue against that.

If you are using your Exorcists to shoot at Marines then I think we've determined who is lacking in experience. ;) You should never use an Exorcist against infantry. That's why the Emperor gave us Seraphim.

Let me see if I can convince you of an Exorcists ability to pay for herself. With an average round of shooting (3.5 shots) an Exorcist will:

Cause 1.17 penetrations on an AV12 vehicle (with a 58% chance of destroying it).
Penetrate AV13 78% of the time (destroying it 39% of the time).
Penetrate AV14 39% of the time (19% chance to destroy).

If the vehicle is a trasport, then the unit will be forced to disembark at the very least (and suffer damage and entanglement, if wrecked). Both results have value, but I won't consider that in my next step.

If a Exorcist is going to get 3 turns of shooting, then let's look at the numbers.

Assuming (costs of vehicles):
AV12 average around 100pts (from Chimeras to Venerable Dreadnoughts)
AV13 average around 150pts (from Predators to Mutated Defilers)
AV14 average around 250pts (from Monoliths to Land Raider crusaders)

That translates to 175pts in destroyed AV12/13 vehicles (not including the damaged/entangled passengers) and 146pts per game in destroyed AV14 vehicles.

Additionally, you should generate an additional 29 Victory Points (24 for AV14) for immobilizing vehicles.

That means, statistically, an Exorcist should give you 170-204pts per game. That's quite a bit more than it's cost.

Red Zinfandel said:
I am saying that taking an Exorcist is definitely not guaranteed to pay its points back. A single Exorcist adds functionality that is probably worth having, even if it doesn't return its full value. But a second or third Exorcist can be signifiant liability vs many armies. It greatly depends upon whom you face. But there is no shortage of tank-hunting weapons these days.
Nothing is guaranteed to do anything. Good players use probability and statistics to determine the value of the units they take. Statistically, an Exorcist earns earn it's points back. I recommend that every Sisters player take three.
 

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mkerr said:
I don't find that tank-hunting has changed much since 3E. .
The Damage charts have changed significantly. Tank hunting is therefore more profitable.
That was my point.

If you are using your Exorcists to shoot at Marines then I think we've determined who is lacking in experience.
I'm going to have to call you to the mat for putting words in my mouth, because I did not say that I do this. It is a common practice to obtain a measure of lethality by comparing performance vs a MEQ (Marine Equivalent). Doing this doesn't mean I only use the Exorcist to shoot Marines.

But I will agree that your comparasin of the Exorcist to different AVs, is a worthwile contribution and thing to to look at and very wise to consider.

I recommend that every Sisters player take three
I recomend every sister player intelligently evaluate both the weapon and his opponents, and then make his own decision.
 

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Red Zinfandel said:
I'm going to have to call you to the mat for putting words in my mouth, because I did not say that I do this. It is a common practice to obtain a measure of lethality by comparing performance vs a MEQ (Marine Equivalent). Doing this doesn't mean I only use the Exorcist to shoot Marines.
I don't feel called to the mat at all. Your argument was that Exorcists won't earn their points in a game and your example was: "So with 3 turns of shooting, you'll statisticly kill about 90 points worth of Marines (at 15 points each). That falls far short of its cost."

MEq examples are great when you are talking about weapons that are intended to use against infantry, but it falls short on weapons that should never be shot at infantry. By the way, the Exorcist also performs poorly against Conscripts, Grots and other units it shouldn't be used against. :rolleyes:

I felt your argument was misleading and I had to say something. It would be like saying that Bolters aren't worth it because they will earn ZERO victory points against AV14.

Red Zinfandel said:
I recomend every sister player intelligently evaluate both the weapon and his opponents, and then make his own decision.
I agree. I encourage every Sisters player to evaluate both sides of the argument and then take three Exorcists. :yes:
 

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ppl need to stop basing everything off of statistics.... its a game of mostly luck and rolling.

I love my 2 exorcists, not once have the failed me yet. However, using only one is rather risky as exorcists can be unreliable. The fact is that they provide our greatly needed longe range fire support.

And whats this talk of not using it against infantry? The exorcist is great at busting tanks thanks to AP1 but is capable of anti-infantry work thanks to its multiple shots (if you roll good :) )
 

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"ppl need to stop basing everything off of statistics.... its a game of mostly luck and rolling."

amen, i like to feild 2 and either a nice big unit of retributers with heavy b's ora lance strike
 
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