[Ravendove]

Hey all,

For a few weeks now I've been playing with a Deathwing list. I had loads of Terminator models in various bits boxes and had just bought Space Hulk, so bought a few more and assembled a 1,500 list consisting of 4-5 Terminator Squads with Belial and a Librarian. For several games now I've been varying this list slightly; trying a Dreadnought, some allied Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Inquisitor, more squads less characters, less squads more characters... but the results are always the same: crushing defeat or narrow draw.

A lot of this will come down to the common 5E lists we see these days. I've fought mechanised SM lists and a bugzilla list. My only draw was against bugzilla, where I won because my army simply didn't contain enough kill points for my opponent to win.

But even then, the army simply isn't fun. It severely lacks not only mobility, but shooting prowess. Four Assault Cannons and a handful of Storm Bolters doesn't scare anybody. Similarly, it isn't that great in assaults either. Per squad, you'll get maybe 4-5 Power Weapon/Lightning Claw attacks at I4 and 6-8 Power Fist attacks at I1. This is only the case if all five members survive and no Power Fist Terminators are taken down in assault before they get to strike. Typically, I'll kill 4-5 models in assault with a full squad.

So against any unit larger than a tactical squad, I need to hold back and whittle them down with concentrated fire before engaging in assault. The problem here is that I don't have enough units, as they get picked apart by enemy heavy fire. I'm also too slow to get out of the way and too short-ranged (24") to sit and snipe from cover.

I suppose many of these problems will be because I lack mobility, something that can be solved only be using Land Raiders. Due to point costs, each Land Raider will reduce my number of troops by 5. Which, when you only have 24 models in an army, is a lot.

So, summed up, here are my questions to you, the Space Marine players:

1. How can I modify the list or play it differently to make it more effective? Pure Deathwing limits me to Terminators, Ven. Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders
2. If playing pure Deathwing isn't viable, what units should I be adding to make it an effective Terminator-heavy Codex: SM army? Is this possible without using primarily TH/SS Terminators?

Please bear in mind also, that I've never really been a Space Marine player. This is my first such army and there are a lot of units I'm not familiar with. Be gentle.

 

[The_Outsider]

A list that I have seen to be somewhat effective (it did alright at the UKGT last year) was something along the lines of-

Belial - thunder hammer and storm shield

Deathwing squad with apothecary ( the quad is mostly likely kitted for CC)

Deathing wing squad with cyclone missile (one or two terminators with CC loadout)

Deathwing squad with cyclone missile (one or two terminators with CC loadout)

Land raider crusader

Land raider

That is something like 1425 so i'm not sure how the remaining points were spent.

The point is this list typically turtles in the raiders using them as gun platforms (even the crusader even though it will be heading for CC) and unleashes a devastating counter-attack the second it's opponent makes its move.

The model count is just silly, but it is all very hard to kill.

Just don't play against dark eldar.

 

[Ravendove]

A list that I have seen to be somewhat effective (it did alright at the UKGT last year) was something along the lines of:

If you're turtling in Land Raiders, why equip yourself with CMLs? They just strike me as the most horribly inefficient weapon. 48" Range vs the rest of the squads' 24". One shot, less AP ability than the AC. Even so, I'm struggling to get excited about games where I spend 3-4 turns sitting still shooting with two or three weapons on a couple of tanks.

 

[The_Outsider]

If you're turtling in Land Raiders, why equip yourself with CMLs? They just strike me as the most horribly inefficient weapon. 48" Range vs the rest of the squads' 24". One shot, less AP ability than the AC. Even so, I'm struggling to get excited about games where I spend 3-4 turns sitting still shooting with two or three weapons on a couple of tanks.

Well it is ultimately so you aren't entirely bound to the raiders - sure you'll want to stay in them until they have softened up the enemy, but in the same vein you can completely switch things up by using the raiders and gunboats and DS'ing the teminators on their own.

In a deathwing list (IMO) the assault cannon is a waste, getting and serious AT gunfire from a terminator unit is a problem (whereas in a vanilla SM list that can easily be made up by devastators/tactical squads/whatever), plus it is cheaper. Armour penetration from shooting isn't so much of an issue for deathwing given the massive reliance on storm bolters, if you need to punch through armour at range you either don't go pure deathwing and starrt getting predators or whatever involved, or you say accept that it is a weakness of the list and just go and punch it to death.

 

[Ravendove]

Agreed. Anti-tank is and forever will be Deathwing's weakness.

So following on from using Devastators and such, how would you go about building a Codex: SM list whilst still making heavy use of Terminators?

 

[The_Outsider]

Agreed. Anti-tank is and forever will be Deathwing's weakness.

So following on from using Devastators and such, how would you go about building a Codex: SM list whilst still making heavy use of Terminators?

Personally (and this may not suit everyone's tastes) I would go for either 2 drop pod tactical squads or naked scouts to meet the minimum requirements, load up on terminators (the ability to have upto 10 in a unit is pretty awesome) and either fill out the remaining points with land raiders or if you are willing to make a small caveat take a master of forge and take heavy support dreads.

IMO you're still better off with deathwing - the ability to mix weapons in a squad is a huge advantage, yet it is so often overlooked.

 

[girlhunter2102]

In regards to some of your above statements I have some rebuttles, refutations etc.

Playing deathwing is indeed viable (preferably pure or multi-wing)
Playing Dark Angels IS fun, but you have to understand, because they dont have all the new toys that SM got they're a somewhat lacking force. Meaning if you can learn to win with DA, you can win with any army (you really hone your strategy).

In regards to lists, mine were most affective when I ran a list similar to yours 5 squads, belial (command squad upgrades for his unit), and a brarian. All with assault cannons, And at least one lightning claw, and thunder hammer per squad. (termys love the CC)

But like I said above, it's a game of strategy, the most fun and successful of mine was "strong flank, weak flank" You let your opponent deploy and have his fun (your stuff is deepstriking, so whats he gonna do) and if he's like the guys I played he'll just spread his army out and around the table etc. He shouldn't be bunched, unless he's crons; or a horde army with no room i suppose (but the strategy is the same for them, you just come from the front instead of the side, and back up each turn for them) anyway back to general spread deployment. When your turn comes you deep strike but your going to deep strike everything on his weak flank, he'll be forced to react to your presence. (deep strike you're other 2 squads in that same spot by the way, strength in numbers) Fyi spread each squad about 8 inches apart when to deep strike in order to avoid mishaps.

Hope this helps, sorry if its confusing, be back for more. etc.

 

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Personally (and this may not suit everyone's tastes) I would go for either 2 drop pod tactical squads or naked scouts to meet the minimum requirements, load up on terminators (the ability to have upto 10 in a unit is pretty awesome) and either fill out the remaining points with land raiders or if you are willing to make a small caveat take a master of forge and take heavy support dreads.

IMO you're still better off with deathwing - the ability to mix weapons in a squad is a huge advantage, yet it is so often overlooked.

I think you're getting confused between the DA codex, and the vanilla codex - You can't take a master of the forge or 10 man terminator squads. Scouts are elites, and as usefull as banging your head on the table until you detach your retinas.

As a deathwing player i would not suggest a librarian. (LD... 9... those powers - make it stop)
I do whole heartedly reccommend Dreadnaughts, preferably Venerable. That adds some anti tank (and they can run behind a raider keeping out of sight if required)
Land Raiders are good for a laugh.
I also must underline that Belial MUST have thunder hammer / shield. I used to run claws until he hit a Wraithlord. No wounding with re-rolls for me.
A Chaplain is a good old Laugh, I do like a CCW squad with standard and a heavy flamer, with terminator clad chaplain in a crusader. You can rely on it to kill, well anything.
At the same time i like my shootier units to deep strike, apothecaries are great there - ignore the first failed save.
Good luck, have faith in your scatter dice for deep striking.

 

[==Me==]

Honestly, if you wanna go all Termies, pick up the SW book and use Loganwing. They get new and improved gear, a wide variety of options, and psykers that are worth a damn. Much more interesting.

Deathwing on its own is kinda gimped, especially considering the obviously better SW alternative. They work best with Ravenwing, building off each other (RW are mobile tank busters, DW are hard and slow dakka machines) or in a DA mech army replacing Tac Squads as scoring Troops.

 

[Ravendove]

I think you're getting confused between the DA codex, and the vanilla codex - You can't take a master of the forge or 10 man terminator squads. Scouts are elites, and as usefull as banging your head on the table until you detach your retinas.

I'm very sure he was referring to using the Vanilla Codex here.

==Me==, Loganwing is something that has appealed to me. The only worry I have is that although the Terminator squads will be cheaper, Logan Grimnar himself is stupidly expensive. For his cost alone, I could have two Deathwing HQ's. How would you go about writing a balanced competitive Loganwing army?

 

[The_Outsider]

I would ask the question: Why go loganwing?

Is it simply an excuse to get a list that is perceived to be better because your current DW list/army fails to meet expectations?

I would personally argue that DW is better, it just requires a bit mroe subtlety than a lot of people think.

Otherwise you get on the slippery slope of "X is easier to use than my Y, so i'll skip putting in the effort in on Y and just go with X and insta-win!". Loganwing will not inherently make the army any better as you still suffer from the same core problems, all you will do is get a bit more raw power for a higher cost which doesn't change anything anyway. If I remember my SW codex correctly then you'll probably be losing out on the ability to DS most/all of the army which is a HUGE loss for such a list.

 

[==Me==]

An all Terminator army is far from an insta-win, but having more options is never a bad thing. If masochism is your thing, go for it, just don't get all huffy when someone doesn't want to pour burning candlewax on their delicate parts

Anyhoo, Logan is pricey, but you get a big return on the investment. Choose-you-Vet-skill is oh so useful and flexible, giving everybody an extra attack for a turn never hurts, and he is an Eternal Warrior beat stick. Not so handy in smaller games, but very useful.

A normal DW army is going to be walky and shooty, probably making the most of assault cannons and Apothecaries. SW do it too, only cheaper and with cyclones.

1850 DW
Belial
GKBC-psychic hood, psycannon
GKT Retinue-4, 2 psycannons
6x Termies-CML, 1 Apothecary

Awful shooty, lots of scoring bodies, and GKTs to help in assault.

1850 Loganwing
Logan
Njal-runic terminator armor
2x Lone Wolves-chainfist, storm shield, terminator armor
10 WGT, 2 cyclones, 2 chainfists, storm shield
3x5 WGT, cyclone, chainfist, storm shield

1850
More shots, better psyker and defense, options from Logan, and 2 KP-free Lone Wolves to protect against assaults.

You could also use BT if you're so inclined to field Termies, I've used this to success a bit.
EC-Accept Any Challenge
Castelan-termie armor, power weapon, storm bolter
Marshal-termie armor, power weapon, storm bolter
2x Command Squads-4, 2 ACs, tank hunters
3x Sword Brethren Termies-5, 2 ACs, tank hunters
3x Crusader Squads-5, lascannon

1850 still.

What it lacks in scoring Termies, it makes up for it in Preferred Enemy and 10 tank hunting assault cannons!

You really have a lot of options for Termie armies, which I think is awesome. More options gives you a much better chance of finding one that works for you.