[DA_Force Commander]

Greets fellow eldar players!!

I am a DA player, but I recently aquired a large eldar force and am in the works to making it into a Ulthwe army. Anyways, my guestion to you is "Why does Eldar need to be revised?". Other than the terribly old fashioned models (jet biker) the only thing I see in the codex that should be fixed is the point costs of the quardian (7 points plz?) and to make the wraithlord more expensive to use.

waiting patiently for your opinion..

CHEERS....

 

[Rork]

I'd suggest looking through this forum for the big threads.

Half the units are either overcosted, have their role performed better by another unit or are just plain awful.

You're opening up a can of worms that has been done a lot :yes:.

 

[Ostsol]

Heh. . . Well, if there was nothing that needed to changed, we wouldn't have these massive threads about it. To summarize, though:

- Wraithlords can be abused in small-point games
- Prism Tanks really don't have much use, given their low number of shots, BS3, and high cost
- Guardian Jetbikes and Shining Spears are overpriced, ending up as Warlock and Brightlance deliverly systems respectively
- Dire Avengers are nothing special, though could probably be better with a revision to their shooting
- Swooping Hawks have little value in a general army; they're only useful either against poorly armoured armies or as an Exarch delivery system
- Vibro Cannon batteries cost quite a bit yet, only have one shot at BS3, and are extremely fragile
- There's also the argument that Falcons can be too tough, though it's really a matter of perspective
- Psychic powers need some more variety to follow the boost that Marines got

Others can probably add more. . .

 

[Librarian Augustine]

Let me ask you this. To have all your useless things made better would you sacrifice the things you have? Like banshees and scorps being slightly worse starcannons having 2 shots instead of 3. With the amount of people who win using eldar they really don't need to be revised. On Warseer I can't remember who it was but one of the codex writers said that they thought eldar players whined a bit and posted some numbers about who was winning in tournaments. THis was a month or so before codex BT but included all the new ones. If they had a mark of 0 the were doing the expected in the negatives you were doing worse. Everyone was worse except eldar who were at 5

 

[Loestal]

Let me ask you this. To have all your useless things made better would you sacrifice the things you have? Like banshees and scorps being slightly worse starcannons having 2 shots instead of 3. With the amount of people who win using eldar they really don't need to be revised. On Warseer I can't remember who it was but one of the codex writers said that they thought eldar players whined a bit and posted some numbers about who was winning in tournaments. THis was a month or so before codex BT but included all the new ones. If they had a mark of 0 the were doing the expected in the negatives you were doing worse. Everyone was worse except eldar who were at 5

The thing is, is that our good units are just as equal to other armys at this point. So no...I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my good units that are equal to "average" marine units. There is no reason for them to be nerfed. Maybe some point adjustments...but other than that no. The fact is, is that there are units in the codex that have absolutly NO place in any Eldar army. Maybe years ago when the rules where different, the codex meshed better with other armys. But anymore....half my codex is useless. Plus...Eldar should have just as much variety as GWs precious marines.

 

[tarzen]

Agreed. Look at what most people field and you'll see the eldar are not a well designed army.

Wraithlords, falcons, and warwalkers for heavy
Scorps, warp spiders, and the occassional banshee for elites
minimal squads of guardians configured as a platform shield or flamer squad as troops
vypers in single squads for fast
an avatar and seer council as hq.
Waveserpents to fill points and provide secondary fire support.

That's the army you'll see, with rare varience.

Most other armies can compete competatively by using any of their units, by using some of ours we're seriously handicapping ourselves.

And guardians dropping a point-hah, would love that, save me over a hundred points in my ulthwe 2000pt army.

 

[Ostsol]

I don't really see why some things should have to be nerfed in order for others to be made better. Many of the units that need to be made better aren't simply average -- they're plain bad. Improving them would simply bring them up to a basic standard that would make it worthwhile to use them. The consequence of that is greater variation for Eldar armies.

 

[farseer_seele]

There are plenty of reasons why:

Avatar
-5+ save. yay. its invulnerable. even if a weapon has any AP other than 6, i always get my 1/3 chance of saving. Bolters laugh at this. unless he is in CC he is easy to kill, and even in close combat he lacks a power weapon to be good. Maybe give him deep strike (the god of death plummeting from above) and at least a 4+ inv. save. rune armour gives even a lowly warlock a much better save

farseers
-witchblades are nice (always wounds on a 2+. yay.), but even a meager power weapon would be preferred. a farseer can barely dent a space marine squad in HtH, whereas most other HQs (SMurf, CSM, DE, etc...) can easily paste a whole squad, and then some...

warlocks
- essentially a 33 pt 5+ cover save for your weapon plats.

elites
-banshees are incredibly weak, but have power weapons. I would LOVE to pay even 10 pts for my scorps to have power wep over chain sword. Fire dragons are better at termie huntin' than tank-busting, completely counter fluff (i love drags, just disagree with how they and their fluff mesh). Wraithguard cost a lot for a really slow unit (wave serpent is almost mandatory for them, or else you'd be lucky to see any activity.

Troops
storm guardians cost to much $ not pts. Dire Avengers are a slightly weaker SMurf (now that you can move and rapid fire) but i still play em bc they look cool (ima sucker for a cool-lookin unit, *cough* swooping hawks *cough*.

Transport
Wave Serpent. supposedly its energy fields keep it from having holo-fields. GUESS WHAT? E-fields are horrible, all it does it turn a lascannon or rail gun into a ML. Yay... id rather pay x pts for a holo-field and make my transport one that can live, then anything else...

Fast Attack
Jetbikes. can be good, but generally iffy. Shining Spears... Their Exarch is supposedly worth having an EDS for him, but he doesnt strike me as great. Hawks need one more S, their weapons need to be Assault 2 Bolters, essentially, even if they cut the range. Shurikats almost would be better, jeez... vypers are perfect.

Heavy Support.
Wraithlords are too cheap... maybe T7, W4-6, or T6 W4 Sv. 3+ inv. somethibng. anything!
dark reapers are great, maybe a bit costly (5 pts under a termie??? and a kitted-out exarch is about 100 pts...
falcons are perfect. need no tweaking (maybe a higher bs for those who wish to use BLs)
war walkers. okay, but unless your ulthwe (3 squads of 3 w/6 starcannons per squad. 36 hits. (against SMurfs) 30 dead marines. in one volley... with a 36" range) but for most armies they aren't that great... also they cost way too much... $30 for one methinks... also have too much room for abuse (power gamer gets 9 walkers, 9 vypers, all w/starcannons. very fun. very not cool)
support weapon batterys. D-CANNON is great, but tricky tricky, tricky to use... also limited range+scatter is meh... shadow weavers are great against hordes (im lookin at u IG, Orks, and 'Nids) but expensive. vibrocannons are... :X

 

[MJ Caboose]

Ive been collecting elder for about 4 years now, and although i wouldnt collect any other army, people are totally right about the standard force. On the GW website they try and justify how a dark elder warrior is the same points cost, but has 1 more WS, BS and I than an elder guardian. These guys are supposed to be seriously advanced - by all means make them vunerable, but they should be able to deal out the pain in return. The same goes for the fire prism. potentially great, but youd have thought that a race millions of years older than humans could make a targeting system on their tanks a little more accurate thann a guardsman with a las gun, even modern day tanks can hit more than 1/2 the time!

The avatar needs more wounds and a tougher armour save. Again - you should be looking at something along the lines of a blood thurster - your talking about an incarnation of a God here - a squad of marines shouldnt be able to take it down in one turn of shooting!

Basically im all for the elder being vunerable because they are supposed to rely on speed and skill - its part of the armys character - but they need to upgrade the ability to kick ass or reduce the points cost.

Btw, is it just me, or do elder players in GW battle reports either not know how to use their armies or pick totallly innapropriate ones? Like in the front of the 4th edition of the rule book - you couldnt have picked a worse army to fight marines!

 

[Tyrael-RM]

You guys are too in depth man.

Simple.

We haven't seen a new dex since 1999.

 

[Rork]

There are plenty of reasons why:

Avatar
unless he is in CC he is easy to kill, and even in close combat he lacks a power weapon to be good.

IIRC, he actually has a power weapon. He just doesn't need it since he's a monstrous creature.

Fast Attack
Shining Spears... Their Exarch is supposedly worth having an EDS for him, but he doesnt strike me as great.

I think they are the worst unit in the book. 150pts for three models? Nearly 200pts for what is essentially a BS5 Bright lance?

As a combat unit you can't take enough of them to do any good, as an anti-infantry unit they are overpriced, and as an anti-tank unit you waste 100pts for the privilege. 200pts gets you three vypers with bright lances.

Every new army list reduces the power of the wraithlord - just look at the assault cannon...

 

[Tyrael-RM]

woah someone complaining about the avatar? I dont know if it luck or skill, mine managed to live 3 railgun shots and suffer no wounds hahahaha.

Also he is a very cheap attention catcher... he has his uses for me. Only thing to make him more pro, buff him up even more, but not too much, I think 200 points on a silly unit for eldar is too costly.

 

[Loestal]

woah someone complaining about the avatar? I dont know if it luck or skill, mine managed to live 3 railgun shots and suffer no wounds hahahaha.

Also he is a very cheap attention catcher... he has his uses for me. Only thing to make him more pro, buff him up even more, but not too much, I think 200 points on a silly unit for eldar is too costly.

Well for the Avatar to live thru that...yeah, that's luck. Seeing as how Avatar has a whate...4 or 5 Inv. save..and a railgun would need 2 or 3's to wound.

 

[tarzen]

I don't think you'll find anyone complaining about the avatar, just that his stats (including cost) fairly represent what he once was and by fluff should be.

And to clarify, he has no weapons, but since he is a MC, he ignores armour in cc. and his save is the same as a guardian with conceal, except he doesn't have a non invulnerable save.

My opinion is that eldar aren't broke, just need to make the other units in our army more viable through points and tweaks. jetbikes are great, but they totally suck for the points you pay for them (considering you can get avyper for the same cost + weapon).

The exarch powers are all bassackwards, should be pick and choose like it was in 2nd.

And yes, it's been a long, long time since our codex (longer than the 7 years posted earlier, that was the second printing)

But, as it stands, we have it pretty good as far as what some of our units can do, would just benice if we could use other units than the ones I listed.

 

[Emp.]

Like Tarzen said, the Avatar's stats are based off fluff. If you read in his description he is a daemon to all purposes and shall be treated as one. Now this Eldar codex came out, Chaos Daemons had a 5+ invul. save and Greater Daemons had a 4+ invul save. Now if they gave the Avatar a 3+/5+, we have an 80 point model who can take a 200+ pt. Chaos greater Daemon, unfair to CSM. If GW bumps the pt cost to say 140, would you take an avatar then? But with all things considered, the Avatar is a steal at his point cost. He's about 60pts more than a regular daemon, is monstrous, has a much better str and toughness, and the best WS in the game.....In all honesty, we should be lucky the Avatar only costs us what he does instead of being more for the same thing. Now I personally believe he should atleast have a 3+ reg. save but the consequences are that he much be raised in points by a lot for Chaos players to not whine like we are about this......my 2¢

 

[Tyrael-RM]

hmm... well Avatar is suppose to be strong, though ofcourse it would change my idea to actually take him if he was worth 140-200, but he has to be stronger, or something of sort, somehow.
well in Dawn of War, even though it is just a game, an Avatar could take out a bloodthirster 1v1.

I personally think Avatar should be an upgradeable unit based on what you wanted on it, as you know fluff wise, avatars are risen from exarchs.. maybe have some traits off them?

 

[TheWamp]

hmm... well Avatar is suppose to be strong, though ofcourse it would change my idea to actually take him if he was worth 140-200, but he has to be stronger, or something of sort, somehow.
well in Dawn of War, even though it is just a game, an Avatar could take out a bloodthirster 1v1.

I'm sorry, I had to be amused at that comment... now you may want to sit down for this... you realize warhammer's just a game, too?:tongue:

Anyways, I agree that he should be more powerful an more costly. However, my biggest problem is with banshees. They need to be more survivable if they're going to cost 135... Still though, I take 3 in 1850, mostly because banshees are nice and scorps with fortune are amazing.

 

[Tyrael-RM]

I meant that it is a video game and cannot be directly translated to the Wh40k World/Game.

hah

Hahhaha. though you got me there I'm a die hard vet player. I get into this stuff you know.

 

[Sabe]

See I personally have no problem with eldar getting an update and sincerely hope they get it asap, but for the eldar players out their who honestly think they are going to get a whole whack of new goodies without many of their units losing a bit of thunder you guys need to keep dreaming. SM sucked major before thier codex update and now their about on par with the ancient eldar codex, Tyranids got some new toys for sure but they lost some things too, BT's IMO actually took a bit of a hit when their codex came out....


Point of the matter is yes, some of your units are out of date, poorly thought over or just plain crap. But Things like WL's, the current avatar, seer councils, Star cannons, falcons, War Walkers with two non-linked weapons, Vyper squadrons etc. all make up for your losses. The eldar codex is still one of the most powerful codex's out their, no doubt about it.

So yes, your more than welcome to voice your cocerns about waiting so long for something new, but don't say that you need the update because the army is weak...because it absolutely is not.


Also on a side not anyone else remember Pete Haines saying that they were looking at reducing a lot of the AP2 weapons out their to make certain high armor save units more survivable in Version 4 of the game? Mark my words....Star cannons will be AP3...Muha...Muha.....Muhahahahahahahahahaha!!!...

 

[farmerralph]

personally i wouldnt mind if some of the better units were weakened or increased in points just so long as most if not all the choices in the dex were viable. i would love to take a prism and jekbikes that worked and if that meant wraithlords and scorpions were not as good then so be it. and at least, as someone pointed out earlier not every vanilla eldar list would be be the same.
o and i doubt that whatever happens to starcannons that the ap will be reduced. those things are plasma weapons ya know.