First, Makoto001, I agree with you. The lash is just one piece of wargear, and there's not a single model in the game that is cheesy by itself. However, the moment you bring out your lash prince, eyes start rolling, regardless of the rest of your army list. The lash gained it's notorious reputation, because opponent's don't like losing control of their models. However, there's sufficient counter powers out there, although they aren't available to every army.

On the other hand, while the lash is only a mid-ranged power, at the same time, nearly every lash is wielded by a model with a 12" movement (speaking from the chaos codex). In essence, a well positioned lash user in the center of the table can pretty much reach any infantry he likes by the end of round 2. Most player's don't know how to deal with that kind of scope.

I've had players complain about my use of a single lash prince. I always inform them that the lash itself is not cheesy, and then politely repeat, "The lash is just one piece of wargear, and there's not a single model in the game that is cheesy by itself."

That said, dual lashes tends to be, if not a pungent two year old bleu cheese, then in the very least, a bastardized American cheddar. But I'll let someone else give their two pennies on this part.

EDIT: I'm constantly up against a Space Wolf player who drops dual dreads in drop pods behind my lines, outfitted with melta guns. I can't tell you how often I lose two predators on the first round to them; and yet, that's not cheese? Cheese is relative, cheese is subjective, cheese should not be spoken in regards to the tabletop, unless it comes on a hamburger with a side of fries.

 

I really don't think lash is that cheesy either. Many chaos players like to just take lash because everybody else is taking it thinking that it's good.

First of all, a DP does not win games, you can get it into CC and maybe kill a unit and then it will get shot up and die, trust me I know.

Second of all, there is an easy way to get around lash which many players are doing these days, they are called mech lists. Of course the only army that can't do this are nids and that's just too bad for them.

I don't even use lash in my lists because I don't think its worth it, it's never really helped me at all. The best way to use lash, at least the way I've seen are with sorcs hiding in squads. He uses a lot of blast weapons in his army and uses lash to just group together a unit and either use a vindicator, obliterator, or a blastmaster to kill them. I don't really think lash is worth it to just get a DP into CC.

 

I feel that a large source of the 'cheese' outcry over the lash is simply due to that fact that it is one of the only effects in the game that allow a player to move the opponents models. Speaking from a personal standpoint I would rather suffer a significantly powerful shooting attack than have someone take control of one of my units.

On a side not I once saw a player lash two full units of well equipped marines together and then drop a pie plate on them. It was dirty.

 

I feel that a large source of the 'cheese' outcry over the lash is simply due to that fact that it is one of the only effects in the game that allow a player to move the opponents models.

Exactly

Also there's the fact that out of the chaos psy powers, "lash" and "Warp time" are the only one worth any merit , anything else is pure rubbish... And the HQ selection being what it is , you'd be a fool not to field a prince. Facing the same dreadfully predictable Chaos list , over and over and over again really gets redundant/ boring , Its: 1-2 daemon prince (Slaanesh/Nurgle) , between 2-4 plague marines , berzerkers , regular marines or a combination of all of them , and an assortment of defilers/vindicator (Possessed) and 2-3 oblits... Oh and you may have a token "Original" unit somewhere as a desperate attempt to avoid the terrible realization that your list is the same as everyone else !... I'm sorry i'm just venting here.:thunder:

Personnally i don't blame people that take 1-2 lashes , what else is there to take really? I'm not going to ask my opponent to handicap himself deliberately because the codex lacks balance.

 

Reason 1, it allows for a turn 1 charge, especially if you bring two. Reason 2, it stacks with pie plates for unacceptably good killing. Get some skill! Reason 3, nearly all tournament lists look the same: two Lash Princes and Defilers/Vindicators. Reason 4, several armies are helpless against it, Tau and Guard in particular but also Chaos and Orks. Reason 5, the primary reason, is that if you don't design your list with Lash in mind then you are going to have a very hard time.

 

Someone always cries cheese when they can't use that power.
It's like it was said above, woohoo, droppod 2 multimelta dreads behind the lines, but that's not cheese, you being able to move my devistators is though.
Whenever someone in a tourney whines that my dual lash princes (my NORMAL tourney list only uses 1 though, only being out the 2 if there is a prize) I just ignore it and be even more cheesey than I planned on being, instead of just moving the enemy into a charge, move them into dual vindi shots.

Let the other armies think it's cheese, everyone has their cheese, necrons have gauss, SM have droppods with dreads/assault marines, chaos has the lash, nids have the acid bomb BS, guard will be getting armor formations, blah blah blah

Everyone uses the best they can get in a tourney.

 

I think the use with pie-plate weapons with lash is just kind of a really easy combination with a very risk/reward ratio. I try to avoid using the lash incombination with pie plates unless it's to stop a very strong unit that has to go down, i.e. assault termies with SS/TH, nob bikers.

I try to stay away from vehicles in general since most lists carry a lot of AV firepower, if I bring mostly troops to the table that kind of makes all those points they spent worth much less.

The only vehicles I really bring to the table are rhinos, aside from that I stick with my troops.

 

I don't think it's cheesey.. it's just boring seeing it in every single list.

And that's not a comment on Chaos players, it's a comment on the Codex.

It's a cool idea, it really is. They just made it a bit too good, so that it's almost foolish not to take it. It's not game breaking, it's just good.

 

If an ork player in a tourney ever told me my dual lashes was cheese, I'd have to knock his 20 nob bikers, each having different gear, off the table and step on them

 

Isn't warptime only for CC?

 

Yar.

 

It can't be used for shooting though
You reroll to hits and to wounds in CC
Not shooting :-/

Unless I'm a complete idiot and am reading the ability totaly wrong

 

It's effect is for "the entirety of that player's turn". So yes, it works for shooting. And movement too if you somehow ever managed to need rolls to hit or wound then, too.

 

It's entireity of that players turn, in CC....
You'd use MoT to give it doombolt and warptime, doombolt (with no rerolls) if it can't charge, if it CAN charge then it gets the warptime effects and can reroll the to hits/wounds.

It's especially useful on a Sorcerer with MoT, since they can cast warptime, AND still make the test for their force weapon to instakill.

 

When the Chaos 'Dex first came out, I considered the Lash Prince cheesy absolutely refused to field one... until the SMurf 'Dex came out and I got a look at their psychic powers and other various goodies. Now, I cheefully use my custom Lash Prince and am seriously considering fielding a second one.

 

Warptime works for shooting and CC. I've asked. If they only meant close combat they would say re roll to hit and to wound in close combat, Why would they say ENTIRETY if they only meant the assualt phase, they said the entirety of the turn, so they mean shooting and assault. Oh and so you know, You can spam warptime at the beginning of your turn and the opponents turn and still use a second power in your turn if you are Tzeentch. In my phase i can use say warptime, then bolt of change on a carnifex, re roll to hit and to wound, assault, re roll to hit and to wound then, and at the start of my oppkinets phase I can still use warptime again.

 

I have two problems with Lash and neither has to do with cheese:
1) It is the defining entry of the entire Codex. You are never better off taking a different HQ. Sure, there are other good HQs, but even list that isn't built around Lash, you are probably better off with a Lash HQ.

2) It allows your opponent to handle your models. That kid eating cheetos is now touching your stuff. /Nerd Fury Engaged

 

That would be my biggest problem with facing an opponent that was running lash princes.

I am normally the most laid back of guys, but my nerd rage overcomes me when someone else tries to handle my models. Thats not even when they are clumping them together in order to blow them off the table with a pie plate.

Touching my models + destroying the unit you just touched = An angry demandred

 

I won't touch your mdoels, I will isntead tell you how to place them and where. That way I dotn touch your models.

 

What is cheese?

I always find these discussions strange and counterproductive, it's a game and it got a defined (the definitions aren't great but they do exist) rules and we play it. Some armies are better than others and some generals are better than others, unfortunately it's almost always easier to blame the rules than reform your army and strategy.

I find that the game becomes rewarding when I spend my time between games trying to figure out what went wrong the last time and adjust. When that time and energy instead is spent on raving about broken rules and unbeatable combinations much of the fun is lost... but that might just be me.

On the same note I find the tourney rules with "comp" score to be strange and silly. The thought of trying to reward inefficient builds is hard for me to understand. I fully respect that some players go far to get a fluffy feel for their armies and thereby incorporate elements that are inefficient, but that should be a reward in itself... isn't that the point.

To end this long post I don't field any Lashes since I play Khornish so instead I give my DP's MoK.

 

I always find these discussions strange and counterproductive, it's a game and it got a defined (the definitions aren't great but they do exist) and we play it. Some armies are better than others and some generals are better than others, unfortunately it's almost always easier to blame the rules than reform your army and strategy.

I find that the game becomes rewarding when I spend my time between games trying to figure out what went wrong the last time and adjust. When that tie and energy instead is spent on raving about broken rules and unbeatable combinations much of the fun is lost... but that might just be me.

How will GW know if something's broken or unbalanced if nobody complains about it?

As others have said, I don't think Lash is broken but I'm sad that only a couple of the special characters would make me consider not taking an HQ with Lash.

 

How is someone who does not use a lash prince a fool? Seriously, our hq choices are mostly good or fun, and a prince is not a requisite to win. I tried princes with lash and other spells in friendly games and saw nothing special in them.

I usually field he sorceror as he fits my fluff, and sometimes kharn as he is can be very fun and let's me field a slightly different list so as not to bore my regular opponents. And these two guys allow me to win both friendly and competitive games, they are in no way inferior to a lash prince, nor foolish to field.

I don't have a problem with a lash prince, it can be annoying but I've faced far cheesier stuff. Plus our expensive nature put us at a big disadvantage against horde armies, so the lash allows us to balance some of that, but is not a neccesity for victory. In my opinion lash is not cheese.

 

well you don't need one to win games (except vs smurfs) but seriously no other hq in the whole dex comes even close to being as good as a lash prince. I would easily pay 250 points for one. It lets you massacre 1 enemy scoring unit per turn, every turn. You don't have to be creative you just need a demolisher and a lash prince.

JitM yes comp is a bad idea but GWs views of balance are even worse so I see comp as a temporary solution until they fix the balancing issues. Cheese is the final result of badly wrtten rules. I'd love to play a game of apocalypse... I'll take 10000points of obliterators you can have wahtever you like as long as you take first turn. Or we can play new orks or new smurfs vs dark eldar from 1998 that'd be fun too. bleh:soldier:

 

Have you ever

Have you ever smelled the Lash of Submission? That's your answer right there!

 

Lash is good but not a game breaker. In fact, I have dropped in from my Emperor's children list in favour of a DP with MoS and warptime. Much more reliable.

Cheese? Not so much.

Warptime: Allows re-rolls of "to hit and to wound rolls for the remainder of that player turn" so it allows re-rolls for shooting and close combat. (espcially since it is used at the beginning of the player turn).

 

How many space marines cry cheese when they can choose to fail a morale test and flee combat, unable to be swept because of their space marine heritage, and also regroup no matter WHAT and then smash a volley of fire into the face of their enemy?
I can't stand that happening to me as thats 3 rules I think take it too far for a very important part of the game.
Unless playing against ridiculous odds, space marines can barely lose a combat now.

 

Yes

Lash is really cheesy. There's no way around this fact. It's not a game breaker, and it won't make your chaos army invincible, but even as a new Chaos player who's planning to use at least one Lash Prince, I have to admit, they're quite cheesy.

Why? For the exact same reason that one Dwarf Lord in Fantasy is cheesy (the one who automatically hits and wounds with all his attacks). There's no defense against it. It doesn't matter what you do or how you set up your unit, as long as it isn't a vehicle, the Prince can fly 12in and lash it from nearly anywhere on the board.

Every other similar psychic power is always an opposed check, or some sort of opposed roll. All you can do is plan for it and take out the demon princes as quickly as possible. With the exception of a psychic hood, there's literally no way to defend yourself from lash, and not only does it move your opponent's units around, but it possibly pins them as well! Can you believe that the creators looked at Lash and said 'that's just not powerful enough, it should pin as well'?

The problem with Lash, as far as Chaos players are concerned, is it can make you lazy. It's really easy to rely heavily on Lash the same way it's really easy to rely on 4-6 units of 30 ork boyz, Ghazghkull, or Snikkrot (from personal Ork experience). They can work, but if you're playing against a player who's prepared to fight your cheese, then you'll be the one unprepared.

 

Lash IS horribly broken.

Let's forget the whole "cheese is subjective excuse for a moment".

It is the only power that allows you to move enemy models. Period. The implications are endless, and except for psychic hood, there is no defense against it. The lash allows the chaos player to wreck any opponent's plan. Not by subtle maneuvering or intelligent fire discipline. No. Just by throwing 2 dice.
You can move a unit out of assault range. Or into assault range.
Or bunch them up before using templates.
Or moving grotz behind the unit they covered.
Or anything else you can think of. For a power that has decent range, and is not too expensive.

It is by far the most powerful psychic power in the game for any player who can see what an opponent's plan is.
Of course, it's not the only cheese in the game. But again, it's the only thing that allows you to move enemy models. And not by 1d6 as in the Daemon codex, mind you; BY A FULL 2D6!
With 2 lashes, you can effectively scatter an entire enemy army, or ensure that his best units will be useless the entire game.

 

Another Ork Player invading the Chaos Forum! Waaagh!

Yeah the lash is bad. It really screws over horde players like myself. And the marines always getting to fail their moral tests is cheesy. It also screws over cc dependent armies. But then I remember my nob bikers, 6pt boyz, and and KFFs and I feel better. For me to cry cheese on Chaos players would be hypocritical. Blaming cheese on your losses does not make you a better player after all.