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This is for heavyskorca sence he keeps asking why do we take them i figured i would ask and get all you guys to give him an answer.

i for one take them to keep my 12 man squads in CC or keep them from runing if they get shot all to heck.
Haveing one has been the defrence of me wining or loseing a game haveing a squad get shot down to only 2 guys and failing there save and then Bping and makeing the second to still be there to hold the objective.
 

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i can understand taking them, but at the same time i can see why not to. its kick arse that it helps with the leadership if we fail it. but if you loose all of your guys but 2 of them.... what are really your chance of making it? this is what i do, i take them in smaller groups like the 12 man squads just to give them that extra help... but other than that i like to save on points to load up on more shtuff =)

They are Usefull, but i can also see why not to take them.
 

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I've been playing Orks for quite some time now, and if my calculations are correct, soon I'll have played my 100th game with them.

With that in mind, let me assure you: you should ALWAYS take bosspoles. For 5 points, they're the best upgrade in the army, and one of the best in all of 40k.

Not only is it dirt cheap, but I've done the math, and bosspoles (or any effect that gives you a re-roll to a leadership check) effectively raise the unit's leadership by 2. Statistically, that's very significant.

Let's say you're down to 7 models in the unit or less, and have to take a panic check. Normally, you'd have to make a leadership 7 check, with around a 58% chance of passing. With a bosspole, your leadership effectively counts as if it were 9, raising the odds to about 84%. That's a very large increase, and with so much on the life, you'd be crazy not to take it.
 

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Not that i doubt you Grax, actually i really appreciate your oppinion on here, but where the duece does it say that it gives a +2 to leadership?? from what i understand all it does is increase the possiblity of making your leadership of 7. at the cost of a wound, so effectively a boy dies everytime you go to reroll your save. perhaps im not understanding this correctly, but from what i understand you have said it A.) gives adds 2 to leadership and B.) does everything else ive stated haha.

im not so certain of A.) but B i know. *shrugs* hope to see that im wrong cause that would be awesome =D and then ill definately add the BP to all of my larger units as well as my smaller ones =D
 

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I'm sure Grax intended that it was a statistical assumption. With Ld 7 having a bosspole mathmatically and statistically would make your chances of passing a Panic check the equivalent of somebody with Ld 9.
 

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That was my conclusion, and I've checked up on his stats and mathematically they make sense. Bosspoles effectively (not literally) raise the boyz leadership to 9 for the purposes of leadership saves, as long as you krump an Ork to do so. Remember though, that you can choose not to use it as well. So in a scenario where you have a very small chance of making the leadership save (for example, if you've lost badly in a CC and have something like a -5 to your Ld) you still need to roll snake eyes to pass. Now in this circumstance I like to look at the number of remaining boyz before I decided whether to utilize my bosspole. Mind, there are very few instances where you wouldn't, and here's why: If you lose CC, even by a lot so you have a -5 or even -6 to your Ld, it's still worth it. Why? Because you're losing a boy for the chance to stay in CC, instead of putting up your Boyz poor Initiative of 2 against your enemy, who probably has an I of 3 or 4, depending on the army, where if they fail your entire squad gets destroyed. Either way, you're best bet is to wound a boy (who may not even die, you never know, t-shirt saves can do something) so you have the chance to stay in CC and not get run down.
 

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Also, keep in mind the composition of ork units.

There's two kinds of ork units that will usually be associated with a nob who can carry a bosspole - big units of boyz, or units of boyz from a trukk. Of these, the only "big" unit of boyz that will ever have to roll a morale check -that it could possibly recover from- would be a unit of 19 boyz and a nob which had taken precisely 10 casualties - any fewer casualties and they're fearless, any less and they can't possibly regroup. It's slightly more likely that a unit of trukk-riding boyz would take casualties in the range where it's possible to regroup after a retreat - something between 3 and 6. Of course, a unit of trukk boys which has taken only 3 casualties still has a 9 leadership, and 9 boyz and a nob from 20 still has LD 10 - i.e. that bosspole advantage isn't as necessary for those circumstances.

So most of the time, when orks are taking a morale test, it's a make-or-die situation. If the orks fail, they'll flee, they won't regroup, and your opponent will score. So it's not just that the bosspole helps you beat morale checks, it's that the morale checks only come in situations where failing means a KP for the enemy.
 

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Aye, for 5 points the bosspoles are a freakin steal. I honestly cannot count the number of times it has saved me arse. Keeping the boys in there fighting instead of running means thats a table quarter contested instead of won by my opponent. Very very nice to be able to reroll leadership tests.
 

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i can understand taking them, but at the same time i can see why not to. its kick arse that it helps with the leadership if we fail it. but if you loose all of your guys but 2 of them.... what are really your chance of making it?
To take your question literally...

Passing Morale with and without a Boss Pole (With no bonus from Mob Rule)
Without: To Pass (Roll '7' or less on 2d6)
( 21 / 36 ) = 0.583 = 58.3%

With: To Pass (Roll '7' or less on 2d6) or (+) To Fail (Roll '8' or higher on 2d6) and (*) To Pass Reroll (Roll '7' or less on 2d6)
( 21 / 36 ) + ( ( 15 / 36 ) * (21 / 36 ) ) = 0.826 = 82.6%

That's about a 25% difference right there. That is very significant, as it means that with the Boss Pole, you will still have about 50% of the units that would have been lost due to failed morale tests. If there is one thing Orks rely upon the most, it is momentum - and having a pile of Boss Poles to go around pretty much puts the odd in your favor that you will be able to maintain that momentum late game.

Not that i doubt you Grax, actually i really appreciate your oppinion on here, but where the duece does it say that it gives a +2 to leadership?? ...
Not only is it dirt cheap, but I've done the math, and bosspoles (or any effect that gives you a re-roll to a leadership check) effectively raise the unit's leadership by 2. Statistically, that's very significant.
The operative word here is effectively. But just for shits and giggles...

Passing Morale With Unmodified Leadership 9
To Pass (Roll '9' or less on 2d6)
( 30 / 36 ) = 0.833 = 83.3%

A difference of 0.7%. Indeed, Grax is right, having a Boss Pole makes your Boyz effectively Ld 9.

Also, keep in mind the composition of ork units.

There's two kinds of ork units that will usually be associated with a nob who can carry a bosspole - big units of boyz, or units of boyz from a trukk. Of these, the only "big" unit of boyz that will ever have to roll a morale check -that it could possibly recover from- would be a unit of 19 boyz and a nob which had taken precisely 10 casualties - any fewer casualties and they're fearless, any less and they can't possibly regroup. It's slightly more likely that a unit of trukk-riding boyz would take casualties in the range where it's possible to regroup after a retreat - something between 3 and 6. Of course, a unit of trukk boys which has taken only 3 casualties still has a 9 leadership, and 9 boyz and a nob from 20 still has LD 10 - i.e. that bosspole advantage isn't as necessary for those circumstances.

So most of the time, when orks are taking a morale test, it's a make-or-die situation. If the orks fail, they'll flee, they won't regroup, and your opponent will score. So it's not just that the bosspole helps you beat morale checks, it's that the morale checks only come in situations where failing means a KP for the enemy.
This is quite right, except for the Trukka Boyz and 19+ Nob synopsis. The unit must first fail their morale test to fall back, and a boss pole reduces the chances of this occurring to almost negligible. Indeed, that means 5 points could very easily save 50+ points of Boyz. If I'm not mistaken, this means the more Boyz in the mob, the more worthwhile the Boss Pole becomes. Consider 30 Boyz (29 + Nob), who have suffered casualties enough to take a morale test. Failure will indeed mean the unit has broken, and a Boss Pole will help prevent that just like it would with fewer Boyz.
 

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Indeed, but you're missing my point. The bosspole isn't useless in those situations either. It's just that those are the only scenarios in which a unit of boyz that could potentially have a bosspole could (a) have to take a morale test, (b) fail it, and (c) have any possibility of regrouping later. Once a unit's below 50% casualties, it can't regroup; if it can't regroup, it's useless except to get in the way of the rest of your orks. And fleeing units that can't regroup (a) don't count for objectives and (b) score KP for the opponent, even if they haven't reached the table edge by the end of the battle, unless I'm totally mistaken.

Bosspoles help in those events too, to be sure. It's just that outside of those scenarios, orks failing morale checks -always- break without a chance to recover. If your unit of 30 orks is whittled down to the point that it has to take a morale check, failing the check will wreck 'em every time.

The math works out differently for other units that can take nobz, but since they are to a man more expensive per model, dropping the 5-point bosspole is nuts. Bikers and nobz units are expensive enough anyway!

I might make an exception if you had a unit that was intended to operate exclusively with a Warboss; his leadership is high enough that the additional bonus from a bosspole isn't very high. But even then, you can't discount the possibility of negative modifiers to leadership, especially if you're engaging well-armored units in close combat. And in that case, you definitely want to have your re-roll on the leadership save... nobody wants an HQ unit caught in a sweeping advance!
 

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haha, well i stand beaten to a pulp and corrected!! =P thanks guys for that!! me thinks i should have written this thread due to my lack of understanding =P haha. ok, so its not a literal +2 to leadership (I was like wow, thats something a Tyranid could shake his fist at!!) haha, so DA BOYZ NEED DA POLE TA KNOW WHOZ DA BOSS!!! right on, hm thanks guys!!
 

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Well Jakare, i gotta thank you for taking the blows on that one. I learned a lot from this thread, and I'm glad to see a few people taking a statistical approach to war gaming, as I've tried to do in the past.
I havent reached 100 orky games, but I'm at 50 and have been in and out of love a lot since my first battle.
For me, the odds stack up just a little differently, so I choose not to take BP's. For ex: in my last game, 1000 pts against IG, playing for table quarters and deploying along the long board edges in broad daylight, I was forced to make ONE morale check, as a result of losing combat. By not taking BP's, I was afforded about 25 more points to buy another PK with, something I now consider invaluable.
You'll notice by now that something, tactically, had to go wrong for my IG opponent. In truth, he rolled very poorly. He used most of his anti weaponry to destroy my Kans and Dread, and was only able to destroy one of my trukks. This trukk contained my big Nobz squad and warboss. as previously stated, a warboss doesnt need a BP to know who the boss is. Thanks to their taking heavy fire and leaving my fringe units of trukk boys free to roam, I was able to let my LD 7 fears die.
HOWEVER, i will concede that both your verbal and numeric arguments were spot on, and I am now a supporter of BPs, especially against anything scary (fear) and in larger games where that last damn boy unit has to stay alive to content a quarter.
Thanks Librarium community
 
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