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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The pictrue that GW projects of the World Eaters is that of mindless, crazy psychopaths charging headlessly into combat without thought of tactical doctrine or supporting fire.

My own minds picture of the World Eaters is that of disciplined warrior monks. They are totally committed to the task of bringing holy war and bloodletting to all in the galaxy. They are the ultimate masters of war, in all it's different forms. All of them have got implanted chips in their brain, but that can be activated by will or by remote controll by the commander.

I use Havocs, Raptors and Predators in my "pure" World Eaters force. I cant figure out how a legion of warriors could have survived through 10.000 years of war without tactics and covering fire.

Give me your thoughts on the matter. How much do you fall into GWs fluffy fold?
How do yo reason? Am I the only one believing the World Eaters being more than just frothing psychopaths, killing anything drawing breath? I mean, if they ALWAYS were in the berzerk state they would kill themselves.

PS:
Kharn is another story altogether. He is the embodyment of war. He's lost it, period. I don't think that Kharn represent the World Eaters in the way he acts. He's a legend, but nothin more than that.
 

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Sir Proofreader
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For what it's worth, I have to say I agree with you. I think it's one thing to be a 'frothing psychopath' and completely another to suffer from a severe case of battle-lust.

And I can agree that there has to be some use of tactics, and of covering fire. I mean, your berserkers have to get to the front line relatively intact - once they get there, they can go crazy in the heat of battle, fairly safe from enemy fire, I suppose.

So I can't see why the Warrior Monk wouldn't fit. In my mind, I don't think they'd be all that disciplined; they'd all be brooding, angry, quick-tempered monks that release all those pent-up feelings once they get into combat! (Emo-monks!)

Maybe they would fight amongst themselves, from time to time, but they keep their weapons locked up so they can only resort to punching each other. Damaging, I'd imagine, but a little less fatal than a chain-axe to the head...
 

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Several pieces of fluff describe Berzerkers as being marginally normal until they get into battle, at which point they get completely carried away. The thing with cult Marines, however, is that by and large their personalities have been overwritten by their patron God. They can act normal but it's unnatural for them and takes effort. Berzerkers making long-term plans, Noise Marines being satisfield with only one good book, Plague Marines trying to do anything without contaminating reality...these are things they could do, but not without good reason and a bad temper by the end. The true leader of a Khornate warband would probably by the guy who can best concentrate on non-violent details rather than the guy who can best fight.

So I can't see why the Warrior Monk wouldn't fit.
They were warrior monks back when they were Space Marines. I don't think the term would apply after the twisting of their souls by Chaos. Better to say they're living symbols of their particular marks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So what happens in a 2 year warp transit? They will need someting to kill. How big supply of slaves would be needed to satethe bloodthirst of a companys worth of World Eaters for about 2 years? Now that's a lot of slaves.
Maybe they're placed in stasis, sedated och in deep meditation. I don't know. What I do understand is that they can't walk around being totally frenzied all the time. They must be able to obey orders, follow instructions and function socially - at least in small groups. After Skallathrax the Legion broke up, but they're not roaming insane individualls. They don't kill each other, at least not very often.
 

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to my mind beserkers function cohessivly in smalll groups. that is, they can interect with their squadmates without having to kill them but thats about it. kinda like a pack of dogs.
well thats my 2 cents
 

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Kharn is infamous precisely because he's the strongest Berzerker with the least self-control. It's likely that very few of the original or new World Eaters are anywhere near as psychotically bloodthirsty--and those who are as crazy are killed off quickly by their peers. Even after the legion's dispersal at Skalathrax, if the internal incident rate were anything greater than almost-zero, there would be no original legionnaires left. They can't possibly be as nutty as many seem to think they are, or they simply couldn't function.

On the other hand, there's a good argument to be made fluff-wise that they lose control on the battlefield. The Norse berserkers of lore supposedly drugged themselves up before battle, which is a surprisingly Slaaneshi behavior. It'd probably be most thematically correct if they were to be given the Plague Marines' Feel no Pain special rule, which will of course never happen. The less-educated among them would carve Futhark (or, later, Futhorc) into places they captured in the belief that the runes held some sort of magical or mystical quality, which is decidedly Tzeentch. And much of it may have been fabricated by anti-pagan Christians.

So when you have all these conflicting inspirations and GW's own backtracking on their fluff and rules (see: Havocs/Raptors unable to take MoK in 3.5ed), it's hard to say for certain who and what the Berzerkers really are. And I'm pretty sure when you think about World Eaters, the first thing that comes to mind is their Berzerkers, but obviously that's not the only type of personnel they field in a battle.

But we can say, as I did in the other thread, that it's pretty safe to assume that Khorne hates sorcery and indulgence, so mixing Khornate troops with Slaanesh/Tzeentch stuff is probably anti-fluffy. Raptors are especially easy to justify. Why not use jump packs for getting in CC with the enemy as quickly as possible? That seems very Khornate!
 

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I always thought the World Eaters were normal (well, normal as far as Chaos-crazed Marines go) until they got into battle. Then once they got into a battle, they went insane.

But as cult troops, wouldn't they be watched over by Khorne? I mean, wouldn't he be able to calm them down (such as when they're traveling) and then whip them into a frenzy at his will?

I'm not a Chaos player so I don't know a whole lot about the fluff, but that has always been my thoughts on it.
 

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Basically, as far as I can tell, they have to shed someone's blood every day, else they will think that they have displeased their god. Khorne is the Blood God, and I don't remember where I got the following quote:

"A day without Bloodshed in Khorne's name is not a day worth living." Of course, that might just be my imagination.

Anyhow, the berzerkers are fanatics, and will do anything to please them. I'm not being sick or anyrthing, but that's my idea of Khorne Berzerkers. They are probably always pissed off outside of battle because they are not in a battle.

This following quote many of us from the previous codex remember:

"Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows..." or something to that effect. Don't have my 3.5 ed codex on me, so it might not be word-for-word.

I would imagine that you could shape a renagade group to act like that, or maybe one under Abaddon's command, but the World Eaters themselves would normally be psychotic maniacs. They have some, but not alot of control outside of battle, they loose it all in battle.

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I'll agree that many people judge them a little too harshly, but on the whole, they don't worry about tactical reasoning as much as other legions will. The previous edition where you could give them Feel No Pain and they had extra movement seemed to imply that they really do just kinda run across the battlefield screaming until they get into CC where they kill and scream.

Once their bloodlust is up, I don't think there was much hope for coherent thought. I'm not entirely sure on on this, but, I think that's my full two cents.
 

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I think the world eaters are just that, "world-eaters," they spend their time consuming worlds with their blood lust, and really care for nothing else. If they run out of things to kill, they probably go after each other and the last one alive is tasked to pull all the gene-seeds and start a new. This person doesn't have to be a berzerker or even a marine. It could be some wackjob cultist sneeking aboard some passenger freighter and dropping chaos-infused gene seeds into a bunch of colonists. Khorne shapes it's warriors into how it seems fit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
In that sence the only true World Eaters are the Tyranids.

Those who think that the World Eaters act without tactical reasoning should play them without tactical reasoning.

In order for the legion to survive, they need to organize and train. They are the greatest astartes fighters in existence. Some have survived for thousands of years. Imagine having that time to hone fighting skills and then having those skills further enhanced with biotechnological surgery and then having THAT even further enhanced by the power of Khorne. They are so superior to anything in existence. They dedicate themselves for war, in all of it's forms. But it's only when war becomes close and personal that they loose it and becomes frenzied. Up close they activate the chip in their brains, releasing hormonal stimulants that trigers pleasure receptors by stimulating adrenaline glands. The more they fight, the more adrenaline gets released. The more adrenaline's in their body, the more pleasure they feel. The more pleasure they feel, the more they dedicate themselves and their actions to Khorne.

Maye the Berzerkers activate their chip prior to battle. It might need to get "warmed up" and they want to be at their fullest already at deployment. Thats why they don't carry bolters. That can also be the reason why World Eaters with the Icon of Khorne doesnt benefit from Furious Charge USR, the chip hasnt had the time to build up the frenzy in the few minutes between shoting and the charge, but they still get the adrenaline rush to get the additional attack. That's what hits them first. The level of frenzy that gives a World Eater Furious Charge USR takes some time to build up. But at that stage they are almost totally unthinking.

Another thought about the Icon, if placed on a Skull Champion, is that the champion himself activates the other squadmembers chips remotely, and when he dies they are automatically switched off. It really doesnt have to be the Champion at all, but the "techmarine" that carries the chip-activation and the teleporthomer. This simulates that the Champion or "techmarine" can take tactical decissions during the frenzy, but the others cant. So when he dies the other zerkers need to start thinking clearly and thus it is arranged so that if the champion/techmarine dies the activation signal to the chips is cut off and the chips become dormant again.This coupled with the theory that the chip needs to "warm up" to get the Furious Charge USR becomes pretty logical.

Maybe Kharn's chip is malfunctioning, so that he's unable to deactivate it. He's been taking some serious blows to the head during 10.000 years of fighting, so it wouldnt be impossible that one of them knocked out the "off-switch".
 

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Speaking about Techmarines,

Gamesworkshop completely omitted what happened to the Techmarines after the Heresy. Granted they were the ones who knew how to perform psycho surgery and that the Legion is bound to gain recruits (albeit in a very messy and gory fashion).

Another question relates to Khornate demons possessing vehicles. Fluff will never tell us if the possessed Predator is calm enough to sit back and shoot, or simply tank shock everything that moves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This is my own ramblings. It is not supported in any way by GW.

Those who performed the psycho-surgery were the Apothecaries. The world Eaters had several levels of Apothecaries, I believe. The first level were those who just extracted geneseed on the battlefield from fallen brothers. They had very little medical knowledge. After those were the surgeons who worked together with the techmarines. Their role were to conduct bionic implants, replacement and to perform ordinary health care. The last and topmost level were the Berzerker Surgeons, whom it speaks of in the latest Codex: Chaos. They were extremely skilled brain Surgeons, with innate knowlegde in the technological arena. It was they who developed the Berzerker Programme on demand from Angron and they who performed the lobotomisations and chip implants on the first Berzerkers. Several of these have survived to this day.

They are the only World Eaters without the implant and are never seen on battles. Their place within the legion is one of high status and reveration. They are considered the fathers of the legion almost to the same extent as Angron himself.

Whole wars have been fought for the possession of but one of these grim practitioners and millions of people have died for them to perfect a seemingly pointless experiment. They are utterly heartless and inhuman, and their ambition to spread war to the ends of the galaxy in Khorne's name is without bounds. They believe that their seats beside Khorne's Brass Throne is secured but are unwilling to die an unviolent death. Due to the extreme security that surrounds just one of these treasured surgeons, the might as well live for eternity.

The World Eaters recruit new members in two separate ways. The first way is by allowing renegade space marines to have the surgery. The other way is by picking tribal chieftains in their lower teens from feral daemon worlds which the World Eaters use as Gladiator Worlds. Their sole purpose is to breed generations worth of fearless and strong youngsters which can fill their ranks. The World Eaters legion as a whole is several thousand members strong. During the campaign known as Dominion of Blood, Angron assaulted the Imperium with a Berzerker force of over 50.000 astartes. At the moment they are beyond counting. But as dislodged warbands their effectivity is far from what could be achieved under the brutal leadership of Angron.

Thats why you never lock a Khornate daemon within a vehicle. If you do that, the vehicle becomes a Destroyer. The World Eaters in the previous codex had the option. Noone else were that stupid.
 
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Brilliant! I love that interpretation. It makes them sound much less like psycopathic killers!

Good job with that! Rep!

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This has inspired me to think about the Stats for such characters. Surely they have to be more potent than our vanilla Chaos Lords, and they should have access to a servo harness-chirugeon contraption that would grant bonuses to any unit he joins as well as extra ranged and close combat attacks.

Which reminds me, does anybody miss the 2nd edition rules for Chaos where the Aspiring Champions had extra wounds, higher weapon and ballistic skills than the rest of their squad? What does not make sense to me is that veterans and elites qualified for Terminator armor have the same number of wounds and combat skills as their rank and file brethren.
 

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I know what you mean. Look at the eldar exarchs! they may not be multi-wound models, but they are better than their bretheren (or sisteren).

Not fair. But let's stop complaining. GW won't do anything about that. Its not that the apothacaries are better than Chaos lord... ME HAS AN IDEA! That would be reasonable fluff to put a sorceror into our armies. Give' em warptime and its like the warptime is their enhanced lobotomisation stuff. But what mark... I would say Slaanesh if one was going from a fluffy standpoint, because their lobotomisation has increased their relfexes. No lash though. That would be cheesey.

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Just from the top of my head, I can think of a number of "count as"-contraptions of how to use the sorcerors.

Sorceror with Lash of Submission:
The Champion has the ability granted from Khorne to issue a challenge from which the enemy is unale to resist. He is also able to send a shockwave of pure terrors into the hearts of his enemies, making them flee for their lives.

Sorceror with Warptime:
Khorne works through his champion, leading his swordhand and directing his shots. The champion is truly blessed by the God of War and Blood.

Sorceror with Doombolt:
The Champions rage is so powerfull that it takes on a physical form, screaming out from the champion to strike those in its way.

To seal the pact with Khorne, the World Eaters slaughtered all their Librarians. But the power of Khorne still flows through his champions. Call their forceweapons Axes of Khorne - a potent weapon that easily lopps the head of the opponents and their psychic powers for whatever you want.

Heres some examples:
Warptime - True Aim of Khorne
Lash of Submission - Terror of the Pure Warrior
Doombolt - Spear of Rage
 

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I think Berserkers as mindless, crazed killing machines is old fluff. In 3rd edition, they had their blood frenzies, that basically made they chase the nearest enemy and all that. This edition, it looks like they are just - as Mr. Wayne says - fearsome, dedicated close-combat specialists - Warrior-Monks, if you will.

Kharn is Kharn. Calling him a Khorne Berserker belittles him. Calling him "insane" is an understatement.
 

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Kharn is another story altogether. He is the embodyment of war. He's lost it, period. I don't think that Kharn represent the World Eaters in the way he acts. He's a legend, but nothin more than that.
Not meaning to take your topic off track Mr_Wayne, but Kharn represents the highest levels of dedication to Khorne, probably standing side by side with Angron as far as dedication (with only space marine and daemon primarch being what truly seperates the two); Kharn is for the world eaters, the pinnacle of dedication to the blood god. Theres a story out there in the world, in the book: let the galaxy burn, that gives an idea of what a battle is like from the perspective (or pretty damn close to the perspective) of Kharn himself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
At Skalathrax Kharn set in motion the sundering of the World Eaters. They broke up into several warbands, Companies and armies of various sizes. Most everyone knows this.
Furthermore
I belive that the World Eaters are divided into two camps. Those loyal to the Daemon Primarch Angron and those who went rogue. That can be the real reason why Kharn is called the Betrayer, because he trigged something that not only mabe HIM betray Angron, but he also made half the legion do the same thing. Angron might be seen as the one who represents war in a organised galaxy-spanning way, while Kharn represents war in the total consumtion of the warrios soul. Not that Angron isnt consumed by the power of Khorne, it's just that I believe he's got the strength to resist the bloodlust to take total control. In that way Kharn is weak one could say. And maybe it's that weakness that holds him from claiming daemonhood. One with a bodycount and dedication such as he would have been elevated to Daemon Prince long ago, yet something is holding him back. Kharn might be blessed with the fortune of Khorne, which prevents him being utterly destryed so that he can continue to slay in his Gods name. But I don't think he'll ever Ascend.

Those still loyal to Angron quest the galaxy to bring skulls to Khornes throne. The loyal champions get appointed a warband/company/army of a size that befits their status. Then they leave to make a crusade of skulls or something for a couple of decades only to return to Angron and rise in status.
The renegade World Eaters roam the galaxy alone. They have cut their bonds to Angron, but are still World Eaters. Their Idol of Choice is Kharn. They sell their services to other warbands or just fights whoever comes in their way.
Theres ton of fluff that can be written around this core. If I were to chose I'd select Loyalists of Angron. The in depth organisation, ranks, officers and structure of the legion is just too cool to pass off.

Check these up:
*Chaplain of Khorne - Skull Orator, Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne.
*True Child of Khorne - Sorcerer, make up your own fluff around this one. VERY important.
*Havocs of Khorne - Provides covering fire to the assault elements. Should really be a mandatory choice, as noone can survie a run across nomansland without surpessing fire.
*Harvester - Apothecary Level 1. Only additional job is to harvest the geneseed from fallen brothers. Played without special rules as just another Berzerker or that he grants the Fearless USR to the unit (the warriors becomes fearless when they know that their geneseed will return safely to the legion if they fall).
*Advice needed - Apothecary level 2. (combat medic, reduce the overall count of wounds the unit receives by shooting or close combat, only one in army)
*Berzerker Chirurgeon - Apothecary level 3. (non combatant member of the World Eaters. All units get the Furious Charge USR. Counts as a HQ choice).
*Holder of the Rage - minor level of techmarine. Works as Icon bearer (holds chip activation device as well as teleport homer).
*Assault elements - the World Eater legion was made up mostly by assault squads. These took the shape of bikers, jumpers and those that rode in rhinos (berzerkers). Only those that rode in rhinos preactivated their chips before battle and thus worked their frenzy to a level where they ecame utterly fearless and had an extreme momentum in battle (Furious Charge USR). The bikers and jumpers didnt preactivate their chips as their specialised equipment required somewhat of a focused mind. That allows them to use specialised weaponry, teleport homers and Icons for Daemon Summoning. A Berzerker with a pre activated chip is far too single minded to worry about such things.

If you got other types of World Eater specialised units, please feel free to add.
I'm not trying to bastardise the legion, but to develop it into something thats more fun to play than a bunch of mindless idiots.
 
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