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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
2000
Chaos Terminators 5
Icon of Khorne 1
Chain fist 1
Combi plasma 3
Combi melta 1
Heavy flamer 1
Total 220

Bezerkers 10
Rhino 1
Aspiring Champion 1
-powerfist 1
Personal icon 1
Total 290

Chaos marines 8
Meltagun 2
Rhino 1
Aspiring champion 1
-Powefist 1
Icon of chaos glory 1
Total 225

Khorne Bezerkers 10
Skull Champion 1
-Power fist 1
Rhino 1
Personal icon 1
Total 290

Thousand Sons 8
(this makes squad number nine) Aspiring Sorcerer 1
-Doombolt 1
Rhino 1
Total 289

Obliterators 3
Total 225

Predator 1
Lascannon sponsons
Total 130

Defiler 1
CC weapons 2
Total 150

Daemon prince 1
MoS 1
LoS 1
Wings 1
Total 155

Total 1974

I have points to burn! Weeh!

More serious things though, I have:

1 monstrous creature
4 transport tanks
2 killy tanks
8 TEq (some with fancy weapons)
37 MEq (most with evil god-powers)

Total:
48 foot soldiers
6 tanks

Seems okay to me.
 

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Terminators can ditch the reaper autocannon especially as the spend allmost all their time in the taxi or in combat. Combiplasma alround could be nice or a few chaps with twin lightning claws. Putting a very expensive HQ in with a very expensive squad in a very expensive taki isnt going to make your points back. It is only a 6 turn game and you will probably only chop up 2 units.

CSMs should have 2 meltas and PF Champs each and either Iok or IoCG.

Berserkers are fine.

Thousand sons look ok but could possibly drop the rhino and plod using slow and purpousful to fire single shot bolters and doombolt as you go. Otherwise they tend to only fire once when disembarking and then get pinned in combat By an opponent so terrified of them shooting a second time.

Land raider, too expensive.

Oblits: split into seperate units if you have free heavy slots.

I would drop the land raider for an extra oblit or two and tone down abaddon to a lash sorceror. Now use the lash to bring opponents to your terminators (increased to 6-7) who can deepstrike from icons on the rhino squads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you, but I just would like to say one thing, I generally only have what is in one box of terminators for terminators, etd. I cannot just grab twq more.

I know lash is good. Would it be possible to get a demon prince with it instead? The thing is, I am trying to follow the "Armour, lots of it or none at all" rule. Three rhinos is weak, I need something with a bit of power to draw attention away.

What I was going to say about my limits. I can get two of a special weapon, but not four, as all I will be getting is two normal chaos boxes.

I also only have one terminator box, and I have assembled them. So combi plasma is out of the question. I can take the reaper off, with effort.

So, ditching the land raider could work, but I need more armour, to protect the rhinos.
 

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I've heard that abaddon is quite strong (even for the points...)...so he's fine.

All the rhinos need extra armor.

I've give that squad of marines with a meltagun a champ with a powerfist too.

Ditch the havoc launcher on the land raider, it's a waste of points, especially on a transport-type land raider.

The terminators could be majorly streamlined points-wise. The champion upgrade is unnecessary, and the reaper autocannon can be downgraded to a heavy flamer (which is so cheap) for a mounted type squad. You probably also don't need so many power fists, with abaddon being such a beast and all. Plus it's nice to strike in initiative order. I always go with a single chain fist.

What I was going to say about my limits. I can get two of a special weapon, but not four, as all I will be getting is two normal chaos boxes.
I believe each box comes with both a melta and a flamer? Once you get 2 boxes, you can have a squad with 2 flamers, and a squad with a 2 meltaguns. Also, each box comes with a plasma gun, and the plasma pistol can be easily converted with a bolter to make another convincing plasma gun. :)

So, ditching the land raider could work, but I need more armour, to protect the rhinos.
The obliterators are probably going to be used for their lascannons. Why not replace them with lascannon predators, to increase the armor count, without losing any antitank?
 

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I've heard that abaddon is quite strong (even for the points...)...so he's fine.
Actually he's just a big fat points sink. Why? Because he's slow. Thus once he loses his raider transport (which may be even before it moves) he has trouble getting into multiple combats or getting anywhere near earning his cost back, let alone making his money's worth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Replacing Obliterators? They worked well. Also, they are almost as durable as a Tri-las-pred. Also, if one dies, I loose a whole lot less.

I like the idea of more armour though. Would a defiler be a good idea?
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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Quick rundown.

Termis: Very expensive for 5 models. Drop the IoK, as you have sufficient c.c. finesse with your berzerkers, and this would save you a handsome chunk of points. Second, you probably don't need any of the power fists in this unit. Stick with the single chain fist. It should be sufficient. Also, drop the champion. Termis work just fine in c.c. without champions. The reaper is ok, but IMHO, it's too expensive. Consider that you can purchase a whopping 5 combi-weapons for the same price as a single reaper. Here's a good 5 man termi squad;

5x termis
*4x combi-plasmas
*1x heavy flamer with chain fist
(for your build, considering that you have very little ways of dealing with vehicles, it might be nice to have a couple of combi-meltas in this squad. However, I generally advise against mixing combi-weapons. Just a thought)

Berzerkers: Not bad. A basic power weapon will allow the champion to take advantage of the superior init conferred by furious charge. Just something to think about. Also, while 10 is a ripe fine number, I'd reduce them down to 8. This will free up some points that should be used for upgrades in other parts of your army.

Chaos Marine Squad: Upgrade one to a champion and take a fist. This will great improve their c.c. ability.

T.S. Marines: Fine.

Oblits: Fine.

Defiler: Fine

Predator: Take las-sponsons. You need the tank busting.

Prince: Fine

Overall, you're solid in c.c., but your tank busting is desperately lacking. You only have the obliterators and the few scattered melta guns. I'd strongly recommend that you drop the defiler and take another pred with las-sponsons, though, I know that you want an ordinance weapon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quick rundown.

Termis: Very expensive for 5 models. Drop the IoK, as you have sufficient c.c. finesse with your berzerkers, and this would save you a handsome chunk of points. Second, you probably don't need any of the power fists in this unit. Stick with the single chain fist. It should be sufficient. Also, drop the champion. Termis work just fine in c.c. without champions. The reaper is ok, but IMHO, it's too expensive. Consider that you can purchase a whopping 5 combi-weapons for the same price as a single reaper. Here's a good 5 man termi squad;

5x termis
*4x combi-plasmas
*1x heavy flamer with chain fist
(for your build, considering that you have very little ways of dealing with vehicles, it might be nice to have a couple of combi-meltas in this squad. However, I generally advise against mixing combi-weapons. Just a thought)
I am considering removing the power fists, yes.

The heavy flamer also seems to be a good idea. The Combi weapons I cannot model properly. Also I do not really want plasma. The only combi weapons I have are combi melta and combi flamer. They were implemented as a spur of the moment usage.

The champion is staying. I need the extra attack on the chain fist. Also, the IoK is nice. Having those five extra attacks can make all the difference. I gain nothing more from putting it with the bezerkers as an asp champ and pw that putting it here.

Berzerkers: Not bad. A basic power weapon will allow the champion to take advantage of the superior init conferred by furious charge. Just something to think about. Also, while 10 is a ripe fine number, I'd reduce them down to 8. This will free up some points that should be used for upgrades in other parts of your army.
I do not really like the idea of Power weapons on the champs. A strength nine power fist is always good. Either way, I make use of furious charge. I prefer the power fist, so I can damage vehicles if I need to.
As for reducing them, I feel they are a good size. 10 is the max carried in a rhino, so I might as well make use of that. Also, I feel that an extra eight attacks on the charge is a good bonus. It adds bodies to the army, and protects the fist.

Chaos Marine Squad: Upgrade one to a champion and take a fist. This will great improve their c.c. ability.
I only will have one powerfist, and it will go on the bezerkers. If you tell me that a terminator power fist will not look goofy on them, I will gladly do this.

T.S. Marines: Fine.

Oblits: Fine.

Defiler: Fine
Good, good...

Predator: Take las-sponsons. You need the tank busting.
But this will mix weapon types. Why not just go for the tri-pred option? It is only 5 points more than half a side sponson, and that is for twin linked. I do not loose any movement bonus, as I can only shoot one and move.

Prince: Fine
Should I try and fit another one in?
Overall, you're solid in c.c., but your tank busting is desperately lacking. You only have the obliterators and the few scattered melta guns. I'd strongly recommend that you drop the defiler and take another pred with las-sponsons, though, I know that you want an ordinance weapon.
[/quote]

Does the prince and the powerfists in squads count? How about the defiler?

Would a dreadnaught be a good idea?

Ah well.

By no means stop rating, please. I just need to hear reasoning. My heavy support is what needs the most help. (the terminators are really beyond help, as I like how the IoK looks on them...)
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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I am considering removing the power fists, yes.
The heavy flamer also seems to be a good idea. The Combi weapons I cannot model properly. Also I do not really want plasma. The only combi weapons I have are combi melta and combi flamer. They were implemented as a spur of the moment usage.

The champion is staying. I need the extra attack on the chain fist. Also, the IoK is nice. Having those five extra attacks can make all the difference. I gain nothing more from putting it with the bezerkers as an asp champ and pw that putting it here.
Understood. However, you're cost for each termi is incredibly high, as compared to the option I detailed. While your configuration clearly has more c.c finesse, at the same time, each unsaved wound loses you a significant amount of the units potency. In general, chaos excels in streamlined builds with a few nice upgrades. Hence, when I examine your army, I'm thinking that reducing expensive squads with low model count would net you sufficient points to upgrade your marine squad with a fisting champion and an additional melta gun, on top of increasing the model count in you Tzeentch Marine squad. Changes like this spread our your eggs, so to speak, and prevents a single expensive unit, such as your termi squad, from being the patently obvious victim of enemy special/heavy weapons. For 50 points more, as an example, you could divide this unit into two 4 man squads with combi-weapons, a power fist, and a heavy flamer. I've found their shock support invaluable, as they deep strike in conjunction with fire from my raptors and/or chaos marines, allow for quick, high yielding devastation. Also, most opponents will kill at least a couple of your termis during the following round, so it's good to have weapons, such as combi-plasmas, that can inflict damage the turn of their deep strike. With icons, scatter is not a problem. I just don't like seeing 5 man squad in excess of 250 points fall prey to a volley of rapid firing plasma on the counter. In my gaming circle, this happens all the time. I just don't like seeing 5 man squad in excess of 250 points fall prey to a volley of rapid firing plasma on the counter. In my gaming circle, this happens all the time.

Modeling issues aside, is there any other particular reason you don't like combi-plasmas? They have good synergy with 2+ armor save models, as well as supplying much needed relief on call against verily everything your opponent could field, save for heavily armored vehicles.

I do not really like the idea of Power weapons on the champs. A strength nine power fist is always good. Either way, I make use of furious charge. I prefer the power fist, so I can damage vehicles if I need to.
As for reducing them, I feel they are a good size. 10 is the max carried in a rhino, so I might as well make use of that. Also, I feel that an extra eight attacks on the charge is a good bonus. It adds bodies to the army, and protects the fist.
Here's my experience: Having played chaos for nearly four years, I've rarely had the opportunity to throw a fist at a vehicle, and when this occurs, it's virtually always at side armor, in which case, S8 is adequate. Additionally, the loss of init on a very effective c.c. fiend is not in my opinion an even trade, since zerkers are designed as infantry killers. However, on the whole, both the fist and the basic power weapon work well. It's more or less a fine tuning question.

Ten is a ripe fine number, and here, I agree that you're maximizing your rhino capacity. Although, against most infantry types, eight is ample. Now that I've said this, I'll add a note against it, namely, that in larger games, having ten man zerker squads is completely justifiable.

I only will have one powerfist, and it will go on the bezerkers. If you tell me that a terminator power fist will not look goofy on them, I will gladly do this.
It's all in the conversion ;)
But this will mix weapon types. Why not just go for the tri-pred option? It is only 5 points more than half a side sponson, and that is for twin linked. I do not loose any movement bonus, as I can only shoot one and move.
Auto-cannon hull & Las-sponsons have good synergy (not perfect, but good). While you're limiting your tanks ability to move and shoot all its weapons, this rarely is a problem for a well deployed pred. Statistically, the pred I'm suggesting is better suited to kill vehicles in general for its point cost. Oh, on that note, the tri-pred is substantially more expensive. We're talking about 130 points to 160 points, off the top of my head. Also, tri-preds are the obvious target of nigh on all enemy tank busting.

Should I try and fit another one in?
Eh, hmm...I'd say no. While 2000 point builds can handle the point cost of two hqs without diluted points required for other upgrades, your build looks fine with just one. Against some enemies, such as swarms, having dual princes greatly hampers your basic bolter fire, which is our bread and butter.
Does the prince and the powerfists in squads count? How about the defiler?
Yes, they certainly do. At the same time, very rarely do either of these actually have the opportunity, consistency, or board position to destroy a vehicle. Also, whenever you throw a power fist at a vehicle, you can rest assured that your unit will be the recipient of loads of incoming ranged hate the following round. Most of the time, it's not worth the trade, and you're better off charging into an enemy squad (assuming one is available).

The only consistent tank busters are long range weapons- those with a range of 36" or greater. Even melta guns, while great tank busting support, cannot sustain your tank busting inventory alone. Multi-meltas are solid options, but at 24", you're limited to what your opponent places forward in his/her deployment zone. All these factor tally up to the point that we chaos players have two cost-effective options for our mainstay tank busting: 1) preds; 2) obliterators. Armies that use rhinos should naturally look first to preds, as they help draw fire away from our transports, which are often the main thrust of our builds.

The recent trend in G.W. is a focus on vehicles. Given this, armies of all types tend to do better with greater and greater numbers of tank busters. In fact, I've noticed lately that when two armies are evenly matched, with equal generals in command, the army with a greater tank busting weaponry usually wins the day. Of course, I'm overgeneralizing now, but it's the growing trend.

Would a dreadnaught be a good idea?
Depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. My initial reaction is no. They don't produce enough fire power for their cost, and their too slow for being a consistent contender in c.c.. Plus, they have that pesky tendency of firing at your own units.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Understood. However, you're cost for each termi is incredibly high, as compared to the option I detailed. While your configuration clearly has more c.c finesse, at the same time, each unsaved wound loses you a significant amount of the units potency. In general, chaos excels in streamlined builds with a few nice upgrades. Hence, when I examine your army, I'm thinking that reducing expensive squads with low model count would net you sufficient points to upgrade your marine squad with a fisting champion and an additional melta gun, on top of increasing the model count in you Tzeentch Marine squad. Changes like this spread our your eggs, so to speak, and prevents a single expensive unit, such as your termi squad, from being the patently obvious victim of enemy special/heavy weapons. For 50 points more, as an example, you could divide this unit into two 4 man squads with combi-weapons, a power fist, and a heavy flamer. I've found their shock support invaluable, as they deep strike in conjunction with fire from my raptors and/or chaos marines, allow for quick, high yielding devastation. Also, most opponents will kill at least a couple of your termis during the following round, so it's good to have weapons, such as combi-plasmas, that can inflict damage the turn of their deep strike. With icons, scatter is not a problem. I just don't like seeing 5 man squad in excess of 250 points fall prey to a volley of rapid firing plasma on the counter. In my gaming circle, this happens all the time. I just don't like seeing 5 man squad in excess of 250 points fall prey to a volley of rapid firing plasma on the counter. In my gaming circle, this happens all the time.

Modeling issues aside, is there any other particular reason you don't like combi-plasmas? They have good synergy with 2+ armor save models, as well as supplying much needed relief on call against verily everything your opponent could field, save for heavily armored vehicles.
Now that you mention it, I suppose plasma is an attractive option. I am not a crack modeler though. I also do not have any P-pistols other than bezerker ones. Would I still be able to model it?

I do not think that the IoK is that big. It lasts a fair while. If you think it is that crippling, I suppose I could take it off, but I just really like the effect, and how it looks.

So, this new squad would cost 230, and would have an IoK, 5 termies, a Champ, a chainfist, a heavy flamer, and 4 plasma. Is this an okay amount?

Remember, my friends do not use any plasma. They stick to lascannons, gauss and missile launchers. I would be more afraid of them charging into me with 10 deathwing terminators with a terminator command squad.

Here's my experience: Having played chaos for nearly four years, I've rarely had the opportunity to throw a fist at a vehicle, and when this occurs, it's virtually always at side armor, in which case, S8 is adequate. Additionally, the loss of init on a very effective c.c. fiend is not in my opinion an even trade, since zerkers are designed as infantry killers. However, on the whole, both the fist and the basic power weapon work well. It's more or less a fine tuning question.
Only thing is, my friend likes to send dreads in their way. I know that the powerfist is not ideal, but it is worth it to have the chance to pop a tank (even if strength 8 is adequate, I cannot choose to loose strength nine) Besides, if I do not take it, around 270 points dies a slow death at the hands of a dread. Anyway, the rest of the bezerkers should cripple the squad sufficiently so I do not fear them. The power fist can then mop up any multi-wound creatures.

Ten is a ripe fine number, and here, I agree that you're maximizing your rhino capacity. Although, against most infantry types, eight is ample. Now that I've said this, I'll add a note against it, namely, that in larger games, having ten man zerker squads is completely justifiable.
What is a larger game? 2000?

I like to have those extra two wounds there. Just so I can have eight to kill with when I reach the enemy.


It's all in the conversion ;)
Assuming I did none and just stuck a terminator fist on him?

Auto-cannon hull & Las-sponsons have good synergy (not perfect, but good). While you're limiting your tanks ability to move and shoot all its weapons, this rarely is a problem for a well deployed pred. Statistically, the pred I'm suggesting is better suited to kill vehicles in general for its point cost. Oh, on that note, the tri-pred is substantially more expensive. We're talking about 130 points to 160 points, off the top of my head. Also, tri-preds are the obvious target of nigh on all enemy tank busting.
Hmm. Almost enough reason to take a tri-las just because of that!

But really, it is 100 points to 130 to go from H-bolter sponsons to las sponsons.

What is the amount of tankbusting I should aim for? Guidelines are so much more helpful than just saying what I need more of. (although it is great that you are helping!)

Eh, hmm...I'd say no. While 2000 point builds can handle the point cost of two hqs without diluted points required for other upgrades, your build looks fine with just one. Against some enemies, such as swarms, having dual princes greatly hampers your basic bolter fire, which is our bread and butter.
Really? I suppose. If I think I need more, I will get it.

Yes, they certainly do. At the same time, very rarely do either of these actually have the opportunity, consistency, or board position to destroy a vehicle. Also, whenever you throw a power fist at a vehicle, you can rest assured that your unit will be the recipient of loads of incoming ranged hate the following round. Most of the time, it's not worth the trade, and you're better off charging into an enemy squad (assuming one is available).
What about ordnance? The ordnance is long ranged, and can do damage, with two AP dice. The chance of it hitting is a bit smaller though.

The only consistent tank busters are long range weapons- those with a range of 36" or greater. Even melta guns, while great tank busting support, cannot sustain your tank busting inventory alone. Multi-meltas are solid options, but at 24", you're limited to what your opponent places forward in his/her deployment zone. All these factor tally up to the point that we chaos players have two cost-effective options for our mainstay tank busting: 1) preds; 2) obliterators. Armies that use rhinos should naturally look first to preds, as they help draw fire away from our transports, which are often the main thrust of our builds.
So where do defilers and vindicators fit in here?

Also, what is a good amount of lascannons for a 2000 point army?

Without Predator, I have three. With it, I have 5. If I make it tri-las, I have six, one twin-linked. If the defiler counts as tankbusting, I have seven.

The recent trend in G.W. is a focus on vehicles. Given this, armies of all types tend to do better with greater and greater numbers of tank busters. In fact, I've noticed lately that when two armies are evenly matched, with equal generals in command, the army with a greater tank busting weaponry usually wins the day. Of course, I'm overgeneralizing now, but it's the growing trend.
I see. Hypothetically, what would happen to me if I decided to just throw away all heavy support, and get as many close combat squads with rhinos as I can?

Depends on what you're willing to sacrifice. My initial reaction is no. They don't produce enough fire power for their cost, and their too slow for being a consistent contender in c.c.. Plus, they have that pesky tendency of firing at your own units.
Fair enough. I will not try to get one of them then. It was just a though.

What about upgrading the men in the normal squad to plague marines? They would still dish out the fire, and be able to do anything, except attack terminators. It would also be fluffy. All the type of marks in the army, except Slannesh, being led by slannesh. Something very black legiony about it. My only worries is the model count. I think I need more models. How will I cope with around 200 ork boyz?
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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Termis: Your most recent suggestion is pretty good. While ideally, I'd suggest dropping the IoK, at the 2000 point level, it isn't *that* much of a point sink.

As far as 'larger' games go, the 2000 point level about the smallest of the larger skirmishes. Personally, I consider 2500 the point where larger games begin, but really, we're just talking about a label ;Y.

Power fists will work fine on zerkers. I still prefer power weapons, but given your dread encounters, the fist is very feasible.

I'm a huge proponent of having as much tank busting as possible. Most enemy builds that utilize a high number of vehicles depend on their mobility, obviously. So, the earlier you start taking them out the better. For a general 2K build, I'd take 2-3 preds with las-sponsons, 2-3 troops in rhinos with melta guns, and then a raptor squad with meltas. This is a solid mix of long and short range tank busters. For your build, then oblits take the place of the preds and are superior early game tank killers when compared to the raptors. Personally, I don't really care for termis with combi-melta, mainly because they are so brutal when maxed out with plasma guns. However, the combi-melta is still a rock solid choice. Here's what I'd recommend for your build:

3x oblits
1x pred with las-sponsons
1x marine squad with 2x melta guns

It's a little light on tank busting, but not by much. Having a single combi-melta in the termis will help some, but that's really not a consistent option. If you took another pred with las-sponsons, then you would be set; however, this would require dropping the defiler (which I know you want :)). Your ordinance can help out as well, but it's too inconsistent to rely on for anything more than the occasional lucky hit.

Defiler or Vindi: Stick with the defiler, as it fills multiple roles and can lob pie plates at the back of your opponent's army- i.e., takes out pesky devastator squads. Plus, the vindi is incredibly weak on its sides. Oh, and since your opponent fields dreads, the defiler is an obvious candidate for dealing with them.

You asked, "Hypothetically, what would happen to me if I decided to just throw away all heavy support, and get as many close combat squads with rhinos as I can?" Chaos has always done well with a high number of marines. If you opted for this route, then I can tell you that your army would do exceeding well, albeit, at the grave expense of your tank busting capability. Try it for a couple of games; your opponents will have major issues dealing with so many troops.

You asked, "What about upgrading the men in the normal squad to plague marines?" My gut reaction is to say "no," because you need the points elsewhere.

Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Termis: Your most recent suggestion is pretty good. While ideally, I'd suggest dropping the IoK, at the 2000 point level, it isn't *that* much of a point sink.

As far as 'larger' games go, the 2000 point level about the smallest of the larger skirmishes. Personally, I consider 2500 the point where larger games begin, but really, we're just talking about a label ;Y.

Power fists will work fine on zerkers. I still prefer power weapons, but given your dread encounters, the fist is very feasible.
I'm a huge proponent of having as much tank busting as possible. Most enemy builds that utilize a high number of vehicles depend on their mobility, obviously. So, the earlier you start taking them out the better. For a general 2K build, I'd take 2-3 preds with las-sponsons, 2-3 troops in rhinos with melta guns, and then a raptor squad with meltas. This is a solid mix of long and short range tank busters. For your build, then oblits take the place of the preds and are superior early game tank killers when compared to the raptors. Personally, I don't really care for termis with combi-melta, mainly because they are so brutal when maxed out with plasma guns. However, the combi-melta is still a rock solid choice. Here's what I'd recommend for your build:
The melta will always be shot like a plasma, it is there for the "just in case" scenario. One shot for the ability to get rid of something big and scary. I would not rely on it, but it seems like an okay thing.

3x oblits
1x pred with las-sponsons
1x marine squad with 2x melta guns

It's a little light on tank busting, but not by much. Having a single combi-melta in the termis will help some, but that's really not a consistent option. If you took another pred with las-sponsons, then you would be set; however, this would require dropping the defiler (which I know you want :)). Your ordinance can help out as well, but it's too inconsistent to rely on for anything more than the occasional lucky hit.
Hmm. My friend uses a lot of tanks. Tries to fill up his heavy support, along with a dready.

Ah, I should be fine. He will never kill three obliterators in one turn.

The Termie melta is just in there for the chance. Not meant to do anything spectacular.

Defiler or Vindi: Stick with the defiler, as it fills multiple roles and can lob pie plates at the back of your opponent's army- i.e., takes out pesky devastator squads. Plus, the vindi is incredibly weak on its sides. Oh, and since your opponent fields dreads, the defiler is an obvious candidate for dealing with them.
Yeah, I suppose it is an okay choice.

By the way, can the legs be seen through? Where is the LOS blocking part of the tank? I do not want to roll a D6 every time something gets shot between its legs. Is this something my friends and I need to decide, or is there a precedence? (Also, when is it in BtB combat?)


You asked, "Hypothetically, what would happen to me if I decided to just throw away all heavy support, and get as many close combat squads with rhinos as I can?" Chaos has always done well with a high number of marines. If you opted for this route, then I can tell you that your army would do exceeding well, albeit, at the grave expense of your tank busting capability. Try it for a couple of games; your opponents will have major issues dealing with so many troops.

You asked, "What about upgrading the men in the normal squad to plague marines?" My gut reaction is to say "no," because you need the points elsewhere.

Hope this helps.
A few final questions, then I will crawl off and start painting/buying this stuff.

1. The pred. Do I try to go for Tri-las, and if I only go for the sponsons, is there a way to change between heavy bolter and lascannon? (modeling wise)

2. Where do I get the point for the lascannons on the pred?

3. What do I take out here to make the list 1500? I am considering the termies and the obbies.

Three questions, then I find my hole.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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By the way, can the legs be seen through? Where is the LOS blocking part of the tank? I do not want to roll a D6 every time something gets shot between its legs. Is this something my friends and I need to decide, or is there a precedence? (Also, when is it in BtB combat?)

1. The pred. Do I try to go for Tri-las, and if I only go for the sponsons, is there a way to change between heavy bolter and lascannon? (modeling wise)

2. Where do I get the point for the lascannons on the pred?

3. What do I take out here to make the list 1500? I am considering the termies and the obbies.

Three questions, then I find my hole.
Remember, c.c. blocks all LOS, unless there is a size difference in the models trying to see past c.c.. For a defiler in melee, I believe you will use the base for determining LOS. Since a defiler does not have a base, then I'm not comfortable saying one thing or another. Though you might want to ask this question in the rules section. It's been a while since this has come up in my local circle. As far as firing through the legs when the defiler is not in c.c., Rules as Written would mandate true LOS; however, I'm not sure how this applies when firing through gaps in a model. Again, one for the rules forum. We have excellent lawyers in there ;). Also, I've asked on another forum, where I'm a member. Perhaps we'll get the answer there, at which point, I'll respond here.

1). I would strongly recommend against the tri-las pred, as it's expensive. Not only is it 30 more points than the las with auto cannons/las sponsons, but you also have to take into account that you're losing the auto-cannons, which is a 15 point upgrade. In the end, the twin linked las hull costs, comparatively speaking, the 30 points for the upgrade and the 15 points for the loss of the auto-cannon. At least, that's the way I look at it. Simply put, 30 points is expensive for twin-las, when you are already getting the autocannon for free. Hence, stick with the base hull and use las-sponsons. This will also greatly improve your chances of taking down light armor.

For modeling, nearly all players use mini earth magnets instead of glue for holding on the weaponry. They are very strong and can be held on with super glue. Check out Ebay or just google earth magnets. Also, there are quite a few threads in the modeling forum over how to use these magnets.

2) I'd drop the number of zerkers down to 8. That's the easiest solution, while still retaining the bulk of your army.

3) Termis for sure. Then either one of the zerker squads or the defiler, a oblit, and something else that's small, like reducing some of your marine squad sizes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Or I can take two away from normal ten man squad of space marines.

I just added up the points. I have 26 points to spare. What do I get? (This really is the final question_

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is only one area to put weapons per side. I cannot load both into the sidesponson holders, and blast away.

Ah well. I can take my questions to a modeling/rules forum now.
 
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