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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is my first army list. :C

Level 4 Archmage, Jewel of Dusk, 2 dispel scrolls

Level 2 Mage, 2 dispel scrolls

Noble, Dragon Armor, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Lance, Barded Elven Steed, Amulet of Light

Noble, Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Barded Elven Steed, Ring of Fury

2 * 10 Archers

10 White Lions with Full Command, Lion Standard

2 * 5 Dragon Princes

2 Tiranoc Chariots

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

2 Great Eagles

Please keep in mind that the majority of people I'll be playing have a limit of 9 power dice as is the case for most tournaments that they participate in.

Comments? :?
 

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The only thing I don't like is the full command on the unit of White lions.

Personally, I would drop the standard, and the magical banner it carries, and instead give musicians to both of the dragon prince units. Any spare points could be used to get another cheap item, or some other trinket.

ninja out
 

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Really like the list.

All I would do is same as GN said. I think musicians for both DP are more useful than a command on your WL. I would also maybe give one the Banner of Ellyrion.
I'm also not a big fan of Chariots and like at least one ranked up unit to hold up the enemy but thats just because I use a couple of fast hard hitting flanking units.
If you love the chariots though stick with them. As it is I think you have a good all round army that should be able to take on most things.
 

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Here is my first army list. :C

Level 4 Archmage, Jewel of Dusk, 2 dispel scrolls

Level 2 Mage, 2 dispel scrolls

Noble, Dragon Armor, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Lance, Barded Elven Steed, Amulet of Light

Noble, Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Barded Elven Steed, Ring of Fury

2 * 10 Archers

10 White Lions with Full Command, Lion Standard

2 * 5 Dragon Princes

2 Tiranoc Chariots

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

2 Great Eagles

Please keep in mind that the majority of people I'll be playing have a limit of 9 power dice as is the case for most tournaments that they participate in.

Comments? :?
If there is a limit on power dice, why do you have so many scrolls? You don't need them. Maybe 1 or 2 if you are really cautious. Otherwise, get more troops or magic items to enhance what you have on the board. As was mentioned, the Dragon Princes could do with some sort of command, depending on how you're going to use them. Personally, I would put the Ring of Fury on the Archmage and give the reaver bow to your other noble. You might as well have a good magic and shooting phase.
 

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I think your army is very balanced and could do very well. I also like the chariots and think that with the dragon princes they can break through most units. However, I am a very big opponent of 4 characters in HE. I think a bsb with lance, shield, DA, barded steed and ellyrion banner could be a lot more effective and frees up points for say another unit of white lions to serve as an anvil for your DPs. I think with 3 characters and another ranked unit your list will be more effective. Hope this helps.
 

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Can't shoot the Reaver Bow if you march... and since I assume that said Noble will be joining one of the Dragon Prince units, if there is a turn in which said Noble is not marching or making a charge declaration, you screwed up somewhere. IMHO, if you are mounted on horseback, I can't ever see a reason to take either of the magic bows. The Ring is fine where it is, and unless you feel really compelled to take the Star Lance, no reason to give him a magic weapon when a mundane lance is available. Now if you wanted to consider other items, both Loremaster's Cloak and Sacred Incense are good options, but I personally think the Ring is better in this list.

That being said, I agree with Buckero0 that 4 scrolls is excessive. If you're really paranoid and feel compelled to take something anti-magic on both mages, take the Staff of Sorcery or the Anullian Crystal on one of them, iand give the other mage 1 or 2 scrolls. In a dice limited environment, I think the Crystal is better, since if you're playing someone who's maxed out at 9 dice, they go to 8 PD and you go to 6 DD, and you still have +1 to dispel. If he fails on any spell he tries to cast, you pretty much can stop anything else that turn unless he gets IF or rolls high on something that you have to use a scroll to make sure you stop it.
 

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Can't shoot the Reaver Bow if you march... and since I assume that said Noble will be joining one of the Dragon Prince units, if there is a turn in which said Noble is not marching or making a charge declaration, you screwed up somewhere. IMHO, if you are mounted on horseback, I can't ever see a reason to take either of the magic bows. The Ring is fine where it is, and unless you feel really compelled to take the Star Lance, no reason to give him a magic weapon when a mundane lance is available. Now if you wanted to consider other items, both Loremaster's Cloak and Sacred Incense are good options, but I personally think the Ring is better in this list.

That being said, I agree with Buckero0 that 4 scrolls is excessive. If you're really paranoid and feel compelled to take something anti-magic on both mages, take the Staff of Sorcery or the Anullian Crystal on one of them, iand give the other mage 1 or 2 scrolls. In a dice limited environment, I think the Crystal is better, since if you're playing someone who's maxed out at 9 dice, they go to 8 PD and you go to 6 DD, and you still have +1 to dispel. If he fails on any spell he tries to cast, you pretty much can stop anything else that turn unless he gets IF or rolls high on something that you have to use a scroll to make sure you stop it.
but he has 2 nobles. I assumed 1 would stay back to help protect the mage. white lions are good, but they won't keep away all the attacks against the archmage. My suggestion was to put the Ring on the Archmage (who has 100pts of magic items allowed) so that he could free up the other noble to do something more useful. If he did take the Reaver bow, personally I would change up his equipment too. But most of the HE items stink, so the only way to get a decent save on a noble (outside of armor of caledor) is to put the guy on a barded steed. To me, the noble with the ring of fury alone is not worth the points he's paying for him. so I would change him up ( and drop most of the scrolls)
 

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No argument from me on whether or not you use the Ring... but my point was that I would expect that you'd run both Nobles with Dragon Prince units so that both end up 6-wide and get maximum frontage.

I don't think leaving one back with the White Lions will be all that effective because you aren't wide enough to keep the Archmage out of base contact, even if you put the Archmage on one end and the Noble on the other. It won't matter if you issue a challenge with your Noble (unless the opponent uses the one guy in base contact who is on your Archmage to accept, which would be poor unit alignment by him prior to the charge), at least one guy is going to hit the Archmage unless you wipe out the front rank, which is statistically impossible unless his unit was smaller than yours. Even so, once you get in CC, that Noble is going to have problems if you didn't charge, because being mounted means you suck if you don't have a lance. Now if you had the points to make him a BSB, and you were trying to use the stubborn-8 + re-roll combination, that's a different story.

I agree with you that the HE nobles pretty much suck in terms of how you can equip them, but I don't know that there's anything much you can do about it. I think GW did the right thing though, not allowing you to set up a Noble that can take Armor of Caledor (or some other way to get a good save on foot) + Reaver Bow (or Bow of the Seafarer) + Great Weapon. You'd just always take that set up, give him the BSB upgrade, and there would be no reason to ever take another infantry-based Noble.

Personally, I like the current Hero set-up as much as almost any other which doesn't involve taking a Great Eagle as a mount. I think you'll find that a Dragon Prince unit capable of blasting screens out of their way via the Ring is a lot better than you'd expect. So what if the Noble is only a Drakemaster with slightly improved stats and a 1+ save? Drakemasters are pretty good already.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for all the comments!

As was expected, I intend to let each noble join one of the Dragon Prince units. I expect them to break on the charge next to all units that are not unbreakable.

The White Lions are to guard the Archmage. That's why they should receive the Lion Standard and a champion. To me this seems more important than a musician in a unit of Dragon Princes. But that's were I hope to benefit from your experiences.

I like the Tiranoc Chariots because of their speed. I want to use them against skrimishers or if I can combine them to negate ranks.

All the comments concerning the number of dispel scrolls seem logical to me. I just didn't do the math at this point. Right now I like the idea of replacing two of them with the annulian crystal most, because I don't want to be "outmagiced". But I have to check the army book once more (which I unfortunately don't have at my office).
 

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The reason you take the musicians in the units of Dragon Princes is so that you can flee from a charge and rally on 10 and less (ie. only fail 1 in 12 tests, significant improvement over 1 in 6) in the event that someone tries to charge them with something that might actually break them without the +2S lances available to you.

This is particularly handy for setting up a situation where your opponent has to charge one of the two units or get wrecked. You flee with the one he attempts to charge, the opponent's unit has a failed charge. Your other Dragon Prince unit now gets to counter-charge, and if you've set it up correctly, often the counter-charge will be flank. In the meantime, you use your wonderful musician to make sure you rally your fleeing Dragon Princes, and depending on how you're set up, you should be protecting the flanks/rear of the engaged unit in case something bad happens.

But if you are planning on taking a Noble with each unit, I imagine that you aren't planning to try and set traps, and you'd rather just plow full-speed ahead into anything you think you can break in one round of combat with a normal front charge.

Just keep in mind that the Chariots can't march move, so they are going to be even slower than the White Lions I am assuming they are guarding the flanks of, especially if you set them out wide to maximize your angles of coverage.

The only thing I'd be moderately concerned with is the size of that White Lion unit. It's a little small for guarding a caster. The first problem with this is that once he kills 5 of them, you no longer have targeting protections or Lookout Sir! (your champion doesn't count as rank-and-file, and you need 5 rank-and-file to have these work). That makes your Archmage very vulnerable.

The second, and arguably more serious, problem with a 10-man unit is that even if you go to 6 wide in front with the mage sitting on the end, most opposition units are going to be wide enough to force it into base with 2 models. A smart opponent won't bother to challenge you with just a champion since you'll refuse and send the Archmage to the back, and if one of those two models in case contact with your Archmage happens to be a champion or character, he'll simply kill the archmage that way (overkill points for CR won't matter if he kills your Archmage in CC before the last turn or two, you've probably already lost the game unless he screwed up real bad somewhere else). Even just two regular troopers in base are more than likely going to rack up at least one wound, more if they have multiple attacks each.

To be honest, I don't see anyway to fix that problem though without seriously altering your list. The White Lion unit really needs to be bigger, preferably 13 or 14 so you can go 7 wide and ensure maximum of one model in base with your Archmage and zero in base against some units, but I don't see anywhere you can easily cut points except the Amulet of Light, but I assume you need that so that you can have a unit to deal with Ethereals or to wipe off Daemonic (or equivalent non-magic ward) saves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
But if you are planning on taking a Noble with each unit, I imagine that (...) you'd rather just plow full-speed ahead into anything you think you can break in one round of combat with a normal front charge.
Exactly!

Just keep in mind that the Chariots can't march move, so they are going to be even slower than the White Lions
That's something I really overlooked. I thought they would be even faster than the Dragon Princes. It seems I have to reconsider their use.

The only thing I'd be moderately concerned with is the size of that White Lion unit. (...) To be honest, I don't see anyway to fix that problem though without seriously altering your list. (...) I don't see anywhere you can easily cut points
Drop one or both chariots? Or do you have any completely different idea of protecting the Archmage?

Amulet of Light, but I assume you need that so that you can have a unit to deal with Ethereals or to wipe off Daemonic (or equivalent non-magic ward) saves.
That was the intention! But lacking experience, I do not know of how much concern that is?! On the other hand the thought of having to deal with a spirit host of two or three bases without the Amulet makes me really nervous!
 

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Just a quick note to say that single chariots cannot negate ranks (US4)

Chariots work well in pairsand I would say that a single tiranoc chariot is pretty strung out. Maybe try a lion chariot (if you still want chariots) for the extra punch?
 

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sorry, ignore everything I said, I didn't know that there were 2 Dragon Prince units. (I was wondering why your list looked so small)

You should be able to run both Dragon Prince units along the flanks with the eagles baiting for you, and the White lions marching up the middle with chariot support. I'd drop the 2 extra scrolls for more white lions though. You're also going to have difficulties keeping your mages protected with only the white lions for protection. Archers/RBTs are usually too far back to keep your mages in range for their support/offensive magic. They also panic too easily imo. White Lions are tough, but will whiff every now and again and are fairly weak in battle if they do. So you'll want as many attacks and possibly ranks as you can get Maybe run them 6 wide and boost them up to 12-14.

My only concern about the first noble now, is that he isn't much better than a glorified Drakemaster (as was mentioned I think). You could upgrade to Drakemaster and give him the amulet of light and save lots of points. Just expand that unit to 6 DP instead of 5.
 

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I think buckero0 and I are pretty much on the same page now... he's a sharp one, doesn't usually miss much, but everyone's entitled to an off-day or two. The tactical overview he gives in the first sentence of his reply paragraph is pretty much exactly what I envisioned. You can run both Dragon Prince units on the same side if you need to play Refused Flank, or you can split them and try for the scoop (IIRC sometimes called a "double pincer", I don't know all the military names for the different tactical positionings).

Something I've seen a few really crazy people try with Chaos is putting their sorcerers in Chaos Chariots and making them in to mobile flank snipers. Character in a Chariot = US5, so they can negate ranks. The big difference here is that Chaos Chariots are good and Chaos Sorcerers might not automatically die in CC; Tiranoc Chariots and HE casters, not so much. I'd be really hesitant to try that tactic carrying an Archmage around, but I see no reason it might nto work for your lower level casters, especially if you want them to be able to cast, keep up with your main block, and still have some modicum of protection.

Buckero0 is absoultely correct about that Noble though, I shoudl have picked this up when I originally made the comment. Seems kinda obvious to me now, Drakemaster upgrade + Amulet + 6th Dragon Prince = 65 points, compared to a 150+ point Noble that has realy tony stat improvements and a 1+ re-rollable save? Should be a no-brainer, although now it occurs to me you might not have an 11th Dragon Prince model to make that plan work. That would actually free up a lot of points, you could actually probably get close to another 5 or 6 White Lions to beef up that unit without even worrying about reducing what you're using on the casters.

I think that Anullian on one and two scrolls on the other might actually be just fine, although typically if I'm buying an Archmage, I want Book of Hoeth. But that actually brings me to another possibility that I've seen people using... Talisman of Saphery + Folraith's Robe makes your Archmage on foot a character nullifier and nigh on impossible to kill. Not very effective with regard to the first if your opponent knows it is coming, but when he smashes his unit of 5 Knights + a mounted general into your White Lions, expecting the general to wipe your front rank and rack up lots of CR points, challenging his general effectively cancels him out of combat. You can't attack the general, since it's engaged in a challenge, but the rest of your unit should have no problem keeping CR close with their ASF and Great Weapons, assuming they just don't outright go crazy and slaughter all 5 knights *wink*.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Scrolls and characters

Thanks for all the good comments! Especially those about the number of scrolls and characters were very conprehensible.

Compared to my initial list, I replaced one of the nobles with a drakemaster who can also use the Amulet of Light which was the main reason to take the noble. And I would feel uneasy without it. The points that I saved on this replacement were spent for Musicians for the Dragon Princes and some more White Lions.

Once I dropped the first noble I wondered if I coul afford to drop the second too. But then I'd have to give the Ring to one of the mages and I fear they cannot use it to as much effect as the noble who is usually in a better position / closer to the enemy.

So here it is:

Level 4 Archmage, Jewel of Dusk, 2 Dispel Scrolls
Level 2 Mage, Annulian Crystal
Noble, Dragon Armor, Enchanted Shield, Lance, Barded Elven Steed, Ring of Fury
2 * 10 Archers
14 White Lions, Full Command, Lion Standard
6 Dragon Princes, Musician, Drakemaster, Amulet of Light
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
2 Tiranoc Chariot
2 Repeater Bolt Thrower
2 Great Eagles
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Only mages

Here's the list as it may end up, when I drop the second noble too.

Level 4 Archmage, Ring of Fury, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll
Level 2 Mage, Annulian Crystal
2 * 10 Archers
17 White Lions, Full Command, Lion Standard
6 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Amulet of Light
6 Dragon Princes, Full Command, Banner of Ellyrion
2 Tiranoc Chariots
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers
2 Great Eagles

Is this better? :|
 
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