[MouseC112]

After playing with both I've come across a fatale flaw in Zaggstrukk. Although he has a soft spot in my heart here's what I realized about both. The result if with my upcoming games vs 3K of marines, should I continue to use Zaggstrukk?

Zaggstrukk- interested developments.
-always must deepstrike
-cannot waaggh or fleet after landing. No where does it indicate your allowed to waagh and the stormboys extra move is during the movement phase, the deepstrike is there movement to my knowledge.
-Has power weapon on turn 1, not after.
-problem- has a 6 inch assault, so much really land close. This weekend I lost half my unit to a really bad scatter

Snikrot
-comes in off any table edge
-2 burnas in the squad, no PK on Snikrot, but he re-rolls hits.
-same unit size for my army, costs less.

Here's my thoughts, Snikrot has more controllability, plus his unit can come on from behind, waaggh another d6, then charge with 2 burnas and up to 15 boys. Zaggstrukk has to deepstrike, which orginally I thought was awesome, now i'm realizing its kinda double edge. In a large game an opponent can cover a lot of his deployment, and deepstriking leaves you really vulnerable to blasts if you can't assault. Kommando's cost less then Stormboys, by a small amount.

So do you think Kommando's are now better? Plus they take the elite instead of the fast slot, my army doesn't use many elites anyway.

 

[psichotykwyrm]

You just might be on to something. I think I'll get some extra boys, paint 'em camouflage, and try out those Kommandos!

Not to mention that all ya gotta do to make Snikrot is build a boy with two knifey-type choppas...

 

[mynameisgrax]

Interesting

I've never been a big fan of deepstriking, and deepstriking stormboyz seems to negate some of the point of using stormboyz. Landing close and not moving isn't really any better than moving fast. To me, the point of deepstriking is getting slow moving troops deeper into enemy territory then they could normally reach on foot.

Stormboyz are problematic enough without having to worry about scattering during deepstrike.

Snikrot is interesting, and although I hadn't thought much of Kommandos, I can see that they can be useful, given the right situation. Their lack of a powerklaw hurts, but they could take out snipers and infantry based artillery very well. I'd most likely arm them with rokkits, rather than flamers though, and also use them to hunt back armor as well.

 

[MouseC112]

burnas are power weapons

I've never been a big fan of deepstriking, and deepstriking stormboyz seems to negate some of the point of using stormboyz. Landing close and not moving isn't really any better than moving fast. To me, the point of deepstriking is getting slow moving troops deeper into enemy territory then they could normally reach on foot.

Stormboyz are problematic enough without having to worry about scattering during deepstrike.

Snikrot is interesting, and although I hadn't thought much of Kommandos, I can see that they can be useful, given the right situation. Their lack of a powerklaw hurts, but they could take out snipers and infantry based artillery very well. I'd most likely arm them with rokkits, rather than flamers though, and also use them to hunt back armor as well.

Well their not armed with flamers exactly. Burnas are power weapons in combat, so the idea is to on turn 2 come in from behind, use the armies waaggh ability to move the extra d6, then charge 12. Giving you a total potential move of 6+D6+6, so essentially 12+d6 from the table edge. Figure they have stikk bombs IE frag grenades, your looking at 6 PW attacks at WS _, str 4, plus Snikrots 5 WS _ Str _ which re-roll hits off the charge. Plus the regular boys. Your going to be able to tangle with things like devestators, fire warriors, and other uglies that hang around the back and shoot your boys.

Oh and they have move through cover so don't worry bout that cover slowing you down. And the any board edge thing really helps.

 

[Katie Drake]

Snikrot actually hits at S6 on the charge thanks to Furious Charge. I saw him and his Kommandos totally own a tri-las Predator that was sitting near the Marine player's table edge blasting away at Kans and the like.

 

[Courtsloth]

I came to a very similar realization recently Mouse. The list I'm currently building http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/ork-army-lists/113444-1850-gorks-angelz-goofy.html originally used Zag. but switched to Snikrot because of cost/reliability issues. Still debating whether to use burnas or rokkits - I'd usually say burnas, but I'm really short on anti-armor.

 

[mynameisgrax]

Well their not armed with flamers exactly. Burnas are power weapons in combat, so the idea is to on turn 2 come in from behind, use the armies waaggh ability to move the extra d6, then charge 12. Giving you a total potential move of 6+D6+6, so essentially 12+d6 from the table edge. Figure they have stikk bombs IE frag grenades, your looking at 6 PW attacks at WS _, str 4, plus Snikrots 5 WS _ Str _ which re-roll hits off the charge. Plus the regular boys. Your going to be able to tangle with things like devestators, fire warriors, and other uglies that hang around the back and shoot your boys.

Oh and they have move through cover so don't worry bout that cover slowing you down. And the any board edge thing really helps.

I'm afraid burnas lost that ability with the release of the new codex. Now they're identical to imperial flamers. They're strength _, AP _, Assault _. There are no additional abilities listed.

Powerklaws are the only power weapons available to orks now, although Snikrots' attacks at STR 6 (on the charge) with WS _ and re-rolls to hits is indeed quite vicious. I may just have to convert some boyz into Kommandos.

 

[NovaJohn]

Sorry grax, you are mistaken, page 45 states they are flamers or power weapons if you don't shoot them in the shooting phase. Its under the burna boys profile description just above the flamer weapon stats.

I agree with the general kommando idea, I would rather sneak up behind than drop in. I've lost too many things trying to deepstrike.

 

[gamerfreak]

I'd have to agree with the general consensus. The kommandos will likely accomplish more and do it more regularly than the stormboyz could ever hope for. Snikrot gives an army that regularly struggles against static fire bases an incredibly powerful weapon to deal with them.

I'd also go for the burnas rather than the rokkits. The rokkits won't really get hit's that often, and if you want to take out armor you will likely be able to do it on the charge to the rear. Burnas, on the other hand, will help against every combat against infantry.

 

[mynameisgrax]

Oops

Sorry grax, you are mistaken, page 45 states they are flamers or power weapons if you don't shoot them in the shooting phase. Its under the burna boys profile description just above the flamer weapon stats.

I agree with the general kommando idea, I would rather sneak up behind than drop in. I've lost too many things trying to deepstrike.

Holy crap, you're right. They really buried that in the description. I wish I knew that last game I played. I might have won that assault (I still won the game though, so no biggie).

I'm honestly surprised they didn't mark the special ability somewhere more obvious. I'm even more surprised that it isn't listed on the summary page. Then again, all the new codexes are constantly burying vital information in random places. It reminds me of the new Eldar codex, which I'm still trying to decipher.

Sorry about that. Sigh...I guess I'll have to read the codex from cover to cover tonight.
:z

 

[LordV]

I don't think its hidden at all. It's in the special rules for burnas, not in the description and there's a page number for every units special rules in the ORKS ARMY LIST section under each of the entries.

 

[mynameisgrax]

I don't think its hidden at all. It's in the special rules for burnas, not in the description and there's a page number for every units special rules in the ORKS ARMY LIST section under each of the entries.

It's hidden if you're used to the older codexes. In the old codexes, every bit of information is listed in the unit entry. Now all the vital information is split between two pages. You have the main page with the detailed fluff descriptions, artwork and basic statistics, but it doesn't include all of your options or costs.

For that, you have to flip towards the back of the book, where you have each of the units listed, with all the costs and options, but without any descriptions of what any of their abilities do. You wind up having to constantly flip back and forth at least twice just to get information on a single unit. The Eldar codex is even worse.

Also, in the older books, the summary pages in back included most of the special rules, and if a weapon had a special effect, it told you so. The new summary page tells you nothing except numbers.

It wasn't hidden in the sense that you couldn't find it if you knew where to look, but the information was in a place that it's never been before in previous codexes, and there was nothing in either the summary or unit cost listing that suggested that burnas were different from normal flamers in any way.

So as I said, I have to go read the book from cover to cover. My mistake was in assuming that the summary would let me know if there were special rules concerning the weapons. Now, all you get is a page number, regardless of whether it's a lasgun or multi-melta, which kind of kills some of the point of having a summary.

 

[Roehug]

I haven’t been playing long but from the half a dozen battles I have been I have found that the best solution if you have the points is to use both. Both units are damn good, the stormboyz with slightly more killing power but with the risk that comes with deep striking but more then simply the combat prowess the very threat of two units then can literally land or come from anywhere I have found already causes even more effective psychological damage then real. With a healthy amount of talking them up pre-game about deepstriking then assaulting or attacking them in the rear you will find your opponent trigger happy and nervous and will more often the not with a bit of encouragement lose site of the objectives. I pretty much always have both units in my lists if I can reasonably afford it just for this reason alone.

If I had to choose I would go with Zag, Strength 9 initiative 4 attacks on charge plus the ability of assaulting from deepstrike (something no other army has) isn’t to be sniffed at even with the perils of scattering.

 

[MouseC112]

I'll agree with Grax, i'm more a fan of the older set up of the codex, with a wargear section that's easy to access instead of flipping through pages and wasting time. I consider myself a veteran ork player, however, I find myself making numerous mistakes due to oversights i've missed that were in the actual unit entry because I was used to looking in wargear.

With regards to Zaggstrukk i've tried to use him number of times, and its just not working out. While his rules are really cool, i'm thinking that a regular nob is a better option. If you think about it, Zaggstrukks unit needs to be within 6 inches to charge, but your scatter is 2d6, there's a huge liability your losing part of your squad unless you roll a hit. Taking into acountant the 1 inch rule IE can't be within a inch of an opponent your actually distance you need to be within is 5 inches ??? cool rules, but not for me.

Snikrot though would be great if he even had a power weapon. His unit seems more of a plan spoiler and a rank and file killer, then to go after elite units, or vehicles. Armor 10 is an option, but its pretty rough at times.