You just wrote down the answer in your post. :soldier:

1) "A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary....."

If a Russ moves more than 6 inches, it is moving at cruising speed so Lumbering Behemoth becomes a moot point and you have to refer back to the BRB.

So no, it may not fire any weapons when moving more than 6 inches.


2) "...can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon the vehicle would normally be able to fire."

Since shaken and stunned don't normally allow any weapons to be fired, the turret can't fire.



Think of it this way. Anytime the BRB says that no weapons may be fired, ignore Lumbering Behemoth.

 

You just wrote down the answer in your post. :soldier:

1) "A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary....."

If a Russ moves more than 6 inches, it is moving at cruising speed so Lumbering Behemoth becomes a moot point and you have to refer back to the BRB.

So no, it may not fire any weapons when moving more than 6 inches.


2) "...can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon the vehicle would normally be able to fire."

Since shaken and stunned don't normally allow any weapons to be fired, the turret can't fire.



Think of it this way. Anytime the BRB says that no weapons may be fired, ignore Lumbering Behemoth.

So, wehre PotMS says you can fire one more weapon than is normally allowed and then goes to give a specific example of it shooting while shaken/stunned, it can do so, but Lumbering behemoth is nearly identical and says it " A LR that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire it turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire.." and it doesn't give an example. so is it that it can't shoot because there's no example given like in PotMS? but if thats not the case and the russ remained stationary or moved up to the 6" then wouldnt it still be meeting the prerequsits to fire the additional weapon since the additional is like a 1+0? I might be reading it wrong, but that seems kinda lame if the only one up reasoning PothMS has is its example thats given since both special rules are almost the same.

 

This is another opportunity for Marine players to chuckle paternalistically at your Leman Russ and pat their Land Raider fondly.

 

PotMS also specifically mentions stunned vehicles, and that's the main difference here.

 

True, shaken and stunned do not allow you to fire unless you have a special rule that allows you to, and Lumbering Behemoth is a special rule, however no where in Lumbering Behemoth does it state that you must be able to fire, it simply states verbatum "A Lemun Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!) However, a Lemun Russ travelling at cruising speed can only move up to D6 + 6" - roll every time it moves at this speed." It never mentions that you must be able to fire a weapon, it just says that so long as you are stationary or move at combat speed you can shoot what you are allowed to, plus fire your main turret. So going off that if a Lemun Russ is shaken/stunned and it can't shoot/move, so long as it meets the prerequisites, being remaining stationary or moving up to 6", it still has its turret weapon that it can fire in addition to the weapons that it can usually shoot, but those weapons that it can usually shoot, being the hull mounted weapon and any sponsons, are shaken and can't fire. Therefore, the weapons it is usually allowed to fire cannot due the the shaken rule, but it still has an additional weapon that it can fire so long as it meets the prerequisites which is remaining stationary or moving up to 6".

 

It's really just that the wording implies you have to be able to shoot in the first place. The wording in the PotMS entry has the same implication, but it makes specific mention of the shaken/stunned situation, and that's basically the whole of the difference. We assume you can't do it unless explicitly stated, which it is for the Land Raider but not for the Leman Russ.

Sorry for going off-topic, but it's pretty silly that a Lemony Russ is considered a "lumbering behemoth" while a Bland Raider is not.

Land Raiders don't lumber. They raid.

 

Sorry for going off-topic, but it's pretty silly that a Lemony Russ is considered a "lumbering behemoth" while a Bland Raider is not.

I know, I know. It's GW.

 

The Leman Russ gets to fire because it's so big, the Land Raider gets to fire because it's semi-sentient.

 

wouldn't it follow the multiple modifiers though like on page 7 in the rulebook? where they give you an example of a model with strength 4 that has a +1 strength and a double strength that makes the final strength 9? Like the normal amount you shoot is the "Str. 4", the addition turret weapon is the "+1 Str." and the shaken/stunned be like the "double str." to where you end up with only 1 shot that turn?

 

The thing about the PotMS is that it is an example of the rule, not the rule that says you can shoot while stunned. SO honestly the bit about being able to shoot while stunned or shaken should be ignored when determining wither or not the two rules should be interpreted the same.
Just because their is no example in the Russ rule doesn’t mean it doesn’t work the same.
So a stunned Russ would fulfill the "remained stationary" pre-req for the Lumbering rule, so shouldn’t it be able to fire its turret?
I just want to cover all bases so when this comes up I can make a clear ruling and not need to fall back on a 4+ roll...

I also agree with the not shooting when moving over 6''

 

Does anything about the Leman Russ specifically state it can fire when stunned or shaken? No? Then it can't.

Job done.

 

The PotMS rule doesn’t say the land raider can fire while shaken or stunned; it just gives an example.... In my opinion everything after "therefore" in Codex space marines is just an example to explain how the rule works, not the actual rule. An example for a rule that is worded nearly the same as Lumbering Behemoth. The only difference is the bit about a new target and ordinance.
So nothing about shooting when shaken or stunned, but also nothing saying it can’t.
If I say it cant I need to know why it cant fire when the rule says it can fire an additional weapon just like a land raider.
Honestly I agree and think it wouldn’t be able to shoot while shaken or stunned, but with ought a good answer I am afraid I would have to rule it as a 4+ if someone wanted to argue.
-GM

 

If I say it cant I need to know why it cant fire when the rule says it can fire an additional weapon just like a land raider.

There's part of the problem: Its not "just like a land raider". Separate rules, written differently.

(Shortened)
Russ: Fires turret in addition to other weapons.
Raider: Fires one more weapon than normal, which can be other target.

 

Yes it does

 

]Russ: Fires turret in addition to other weapons.

No weapons allowed + 1 turret = 1 turret....

Raider: Fires one more weapon than normal, which can be other target.

No weapons allowed + 1 more weapon = 1 more weapon...

This is the argument I cant counter, and with ard'boys looming just around the corner Id like to have something solid, somthing more than

Yes it does

 

I see a big difference between "in addition to" and "one more than normal". By context, the former requires other weapons(or at least the allowance); while the latter does not.

 

How so? "in addition to any other weapon it usually allowed to fire", so if im shaken/stunned im usually allowed to fire nothing, however in addition to what I can usually fire ,being shaken/stunned its now nothing, I can fire my turret weapon.

 

Personally I think "in addition to any other weapon it usually allowed to fire", requires the ability of the Leman Russ to be allowed to fire. If it is shaken or stunned it's not allowed to and therefore can't fire the turret. I also think that as the PotMS has the explicitly say even when shaken or stunned, a Leman Russ can't as it doesn't say that.

Anyway Land Raider costs way more than a Russ. The whole point of guard is redundancy.

 

My only real issue is that PotMS doesn’t state that it can fire when shaken or stunned. Only the example following the rule says it can.