2000 Point Army, Friendly (All Comers)

Rikker · Apr 9, 2015

Hi All,

New to the forum, new to the game, new to HE in general. I've been lurking here for a while, reading up on everything, and liked the atmosphere, so I thought I'd join!

Right now I'm just proxying things, I'll probably be looking for models in the near future. Anyway, I'm playing against a few friends, one of whom is also new, the other is an old pro (he runs Ogre Kingdoms, and recently picked up O&G).
The new guy is playing with Empire.
The idea for this list is to try to be an "all-comers" list, rather than tailoring it to my opponents here.
I'm trying to avoid the insane cheese stuff (light coven), and BotWD just doesn't seem all that useful (plus... it's mean) but I'll take optimization or theory critiques! Don't be afraid to be harsh - my feelings will not be hurt.
Here it is:

Lord:
Archmage, lvl 4. (Shadow)
- Talisman of Preservation
- Book of Hoeth (not sure I want to keep this, it doesn't seem to make a big difference, usually)
- Sometimes I mount this for the armor save / mobility if necessary

Hero:
Noble, bsb, great weapon, armor of destiny (also sometimes mounted for armor save)

Core:

Ellyrian Reavers x5 (spear only)
Ellyrian Reavers x5 (spear only)
Silverhelms x18, Musician EDIT: (forgot about the Shields!)

Special:
Phoenix Guard x24, Full Command, Razor Standard (escorts BSB ). Not sure if I should drop this by a few models, or leave it large to soak up damage.
White Lions x18, Musician

Rare:
Eagle
Sisters of Avelorn x13 (Escorts AM, but not sure if I should add a champ, since the idea here is for the unit not to be in CC anyway with anything that could single out the AM)

I like the reavers for chaff hunting (just recently realized how good they are at that) and war machine hunting. I like the single eagle so I can double up chaff on one side, or dump it off to stop something like a Mournfang block. Alternately, it's also good at finding the really far away stuff.

Sisters are mostly there to pick at chaff, take a few wounds off of large things, and deal with regeneration. I know they're not ideal, I could swap for a pair of RBTs, but then I have no bunker for my AM, definitely not a good plan to leave him solo.

Any thoughts are more than welcome! Thanks in advance.

CaptainSarathai · Apr 9, 2015

That looks like a reasonable list - very close to what I play at 2500pts, actually. The only things I might lean on, would be;

1) Phoenix Guard, should you make them smaller?
Meh. Maybe. You don't need them to soak up much pain, considering 50% of anything that hurts them will bounce off their Ward. 24 is a good size for them, I would definitely drop one model and go with 23, +1BSB for a total of 24, fielded 6x4. Right now, you're down to 4 ranks once you lose one model.

The real problem is the size of your White Lions. They can't take punishment in the same way that your Phoenix Guard can, so that's where the bodies should go. At 2k, I'd say just swap the unit sizes; 24 White Lions, 18 Phoenix Guard. Set the Lions up for 8x3, or find enough extra points to run them 7x4. The Lions should also have a Banner to go along with their Musician - they're a combat unit, so they'll want the extra +1CR.

A good spot to look for points might be those Silver Helms. 18 isa huge unit, even by 2500pt game standards. I would consider dropping them down to 12 models, and if you need more points in Core, adding on to your Reavers (either give them Bows+Spears, or make a unit of 6, or add a 3rd unit). Try to scrap along right at the minimum for Core. Elf Special/Rare is better.

2) Sisters as a Bunker, and Clearing Chaff
NOPE! Sisters make a terrible Bunker, in my experience. They die just as easily as Archers when they're being shot at, so there's really no advantage between the two except for the damage that they deal. The problem is that Sisters are 4pts more than Archers, and in Rare. They have S4, which is nice, but they're only 24" range. This means that they are in range of everything that Elves hate: longbows, crossbows, bows... and are trying to toe off against Handgunners (Empire or Dwarf) which are either vastly less expensive, or are rocking heavy enough armor to win any back-and-forth shooting they may need to do.
For cutting chaff, a pair of RBTs would work just as well if not better, because of the long range. You can kill chaff before it becomes a problem for you.

The Flaming isn't worth that much if you don't have any way to follow up on it. For starters, practically nothing you see from Ogres or Empire will have Regen (I know that you're not tailoring), and only Trolls have Regen in the O&G army. Actually, Trolls are probably the best example of a Regen unit, as they are the most widespread, and anything else with regen usually has at least a Troll's statline when it comes to trying to down the creature (T4+, multiwounds, etc). Your Sisters kill one Troll per round of shooting, hitting on 3+ (for range only) and wounding on a 4+, you're going to dish out 4.3W each turn. At 24", you will probably only get 1-2 rounds of shooting before the Trolls are charging into your Sisters (so, fewer rounds if you intercept the Trolls or dodge away with the Sisters).
Typically, Sisters are used to negate Regen in the shooting phase and open up units to a follow-up from RBTs. It's not a tactic that I use often, because Elf combat is vastly superior to their shooting, and I can always just hand a regiment the Banner of Flame for the same effect (and probably with S6 from the White Lions).

You don't really need a designated bunker for your Archy. He's got 3W and a 4+ Ward, he can take care of himself long enough if his unit isn't gunning hell-for-leather right into the enemies' teeth, or at least avoiding the really "hard" stuff.
If you do want a designated bunker, then I'd go with plain Archers.
---

Otherwise, I'd say it's a good list. You're right that you can probably ditch the Book of Hoeth on your Archmage, but that's a personal preference. Mine always goes with just the 4+ Ward item, and that's it, but others like to kit their Wizards out a bit more and the Book is a good item. Also remember that if you're Mounted, you lose your 'Look Out Sir!' rolls inside units of Infantry (and you'll always get placed out on the side since your base size doesn't mesh). This is important against things like Cannon-sniping, which is made doubly important by the fact that your opponents both have access to Cannons.

d_k_patt · Apr 9, 2015

Hi there and welcome. Cap is the man with the plan when it comes to elfs but I will try to impart some of my personal experiences.

I like the bsb build slap him on a barded steed and in the silvers drop one to fit and full command with 2 units of reavers and your golden for core.

Phoenix guard are like spears better deep than wide they are your anvil one of the best I would say you don't have enough 25 5x5 standard only razors standard

lions now their better wide than deep and since joining this forum I have grown to love them was a swords master man but now these guys win all day. Like cap said 6 or 7 wide and 4 deep banner again don't full command waste of points.

With Mage I agree with cap tali of pres maybe a dispel scroll. He should be fine on his own keep him 6 inches behind a unit and you get look out sir on 3+

I am going to say what I always say if you want to shoot shift to the dark elves, high elves belong in close combat they can destroy anyone if you must have shooting bolt throwers. If you drop the Eagle and sisters you can get a battery of 3 which is a good amount along with the book drop you should be able to boost the units the way being suggested.

Hope this helps

Rikker · Apr 9, 2015

Thanks for the quick response, and good point! I had forgotten that mounting the AM lost the LOS! rule, so we won't be mounting him (unless I were going to add him to the SH unit). The only thing is - the mobility is nice late game after I've tied up or destroyed his war machines. I suppose I can just dump him out solo at that point anyway for the line of sight boost.

Regarding the PG format: Yes, if I run them 5x5 I'm down to 4 ranks if I lose 1, but if I run them 6x4 i'm down to 3 ranks if I lose two. Granted, more of them can attack in that scenario. How significant is that tradeoff?

You made a convincing point about the Sisters vs. RBTs, and RBTs are CHEAPER, so... I'll make the change. Assuming I leave the BSB in the PG unit, either Silver helms or WLs are going to be my new friends for the AM. I worry about positioning issues, not being able to have Line of sight to target Pit of Shades. Everything else I realistically want from Shadow isn't as necessary. I suppose I can just move the AM around and see where he fits best. Right now I'm leaning towards the WL unit... any thoughts there?

Yes, without that many Silver helms (which have been so threatening that they've been taking a lot of fire), I need to do something about my core. I'll figure that one out I'll probably just add a model to each unit and give them bows too just to make them that much more annoying. I'm still not going to have a ton of drops this way, and if I knock the SHs down to beef up the WLs (which I can do without doing much else, and go with 7x4 as you suggested.) I'm actually left with a few more points. Beef up the WL block? Try to shave a few models and add another RBT (probably unnecessary?) or eagle (also probably unnecessary?)

EDIT:
ANNND while I was posting, D_K posted.

Hmmm, I have to go back and read the Look Out Sir rule - I thought it was 4+ if they're not in the unit. I suppose that's not terrible, but I know that people will be gunning for him, being my general AND my only magic.

So mount the BSB for full effect, huh? I guess I worry about taking him out of range of the PG/WL combat when that happens, as sometimes I'll have the SHs charge something to chase it away (or break/destroy it). Maybe the PG shouldn't be breaking much, but I really can't afford to have them panic and run either. Thoughts on that?

CaptainSarathai · Apr 11, 2015

Rikker said:
Thanks for the quick response, and good point! I had forgotten that mounting the AM lost the LOS! rule, so we won't be mounting him (unless I were going to add him to the SH unit). The only thing is - the mobility is nice late game after I've tied up or destroyed his war machines. I suppose I can just dump him out solo at that point anyway for the line of sight boost.

I generally don't need mobility for spell-casting late game. Also, you're using Shadow - I could understand if you were throwing something like Lore of Fire, to try and clear out those last few hangers-on from enemy units, but with Shadow you're not really doing much but playing the buff/debuff game.
The Agument/Hex spells (and Aug/Hex heavy lores) are the more powerful options in the game. They do need Line of Sight though, so I usually try to put my Wizards where they'll be targeting most of their spells (you always have Line of Sight to yourself and your own unit).

Regarding the PG format: Yes, if I run them 5x5 I'm down to 4 ranks if I lose 1, but if I run them 6x4 i'm down to 3 ranks if I lose two. Granted, more of them can attack in that scenario. How significant is that tradeoff?

Well, remembering that PG will "bounce" a wound on a 4+, killing off 1 of them really requires about 2 "successful" wounds on average, so the wider ranks are a bit more noticeable on PG than anything else in our book.
I'm actually not a big fan of Phoenix Guard though, so I don't have quite as much experience with them. There are some really cheese-bally "tricks" that you can play with them, and those I have used in the past, but overall, DK is right - they're like Spears. Expensive, wardsaved Spears in Special. If you run them 5x5, you're paying a lot for what will usually be used as a 5-deep or 4-deep "Anvil" unit. With Elves though, I don't really have the points for that. I've found that White Lions are super fragile, and in many cases, while they might kill an enemy regiment worth their value (usually will), they won't have enough models to finish the battle or join another fight. Then I'm stuck with a block of Phoenix Guard, who are really good at not dying but can't kill anything worth bringing down, and I'm wishing I had more Lions. So eventually I dropped the PGs, and got more Lions. It was a really easy, no-brainer sort of fix.

There are rumors filtering back to me from some of my club-members who still play at my old LGS, and they say that there's an Elf player there who's been having a lot of success with a list that swaps my two blocks of White Lions for two blocks of PGs. Apparently, he's taking advantage of the new 50% Lords allowance, and runs a Light Coven based around Allie and two Loremasters "loaded for bear." The idea is that he can spam lots of minor damage spells and pull some serious weight with Lore of Light, and then in combat you simply can't kill any of his models - meanwhile, the Loremasters are generating all of his kills.
I'm going to try and build the list myself, and see what I can come up with. It's definitely a weird way to play Elves though, because we're typically so "character-lite".

I worry about positioning issues, not being able to have Line of sight to target Pit of Shades. Everything else I realistically want from Shadow isn't as necessary. I suppose I can just move the AM around and see where he fits best. Right now I'm leaning towards the WL unit... any thoughts there?

First, if you're using Pit of Shades as your major spell, you don't want to be using Lore of Shadow. It's not a damage lore, and there are better options out there for straight damage. LoShadow is a lot better for the buffing/debuffing game. Knocking an enemy down to T2 makes our S3 seem a lot easier to swallow - the same goes for knocking down their Strength, so that we aren't getting wounded on a 2+ (Chaos Warriors hate that). We can also debuff Initative so that we can keep our rerolls, and debuff Ballistic Skill to help us get across the table. Once you get a bit more comfortable with the game, you'll also find yourself targeting Movement with the sig-spell, because it can ruin a charge-plan. Mind Razor is also stupidly powerful on Elves, but is really just icing on the cake.

As for sticking him in the White Lions - you can, and I'd even say to go ahead and use the Banner of the World Dragon. I initially railed against this item, for the same reasons that you probably don't like it - it's situational in every game except when you're playing against Daemons, and then it's just a big "G.F.Y.S" to the Daemon player. However, I realized what it's really for, and that's Miscast Defense. Put your Wizard into that block of White Lions and they just do not care if he throws 6D6 at every spell, because they get a 2+ Ward against all the MC results that could possibly hurt them. Even the Wizard does, except for the one where he can just get outright sucked into the Warp, or lose Levels.
Neither of your regular opponents will hate you for using the Banner - neither of them have units that are restricted to magical attacks only. The only models in their collections that your hurting would be their Characters, and only if they choose to give them Magic Weapons.

I'm still not going to have a ton of drops this way, and if I knock the SHs down to beef up the WLs (which I can do without doing much else, and go with 7x4 as you suggested.) I'm actually left with a few more points. Beef up the WL block? Try to shave a few models and add another RBT (probably unnecessary?) or eagle (also probably unnecessary?)

Having a lot drops isn't something that Elves do all that well. You'll never out-deploy Empire unless they go hard on the Detachment system and drop units 3-for-1. Ogres are a maybe, but they know how to play the game too, and can still out deploy us. Still, the more drops you do have, the less your opponent can mess with your plan. Sure, you might not know where he's putting his juicy Wizard-bunker until right after your drop your White Lions, but if he's still got 3 drops after you place those Lions, you can expect that he'll drop the Wizard Bunker and then stick 2 more units in your way.
For that reason, I'd actually look into possibly not adding 1 Reaver and Bows to each unit, and seeing if instead of an Eagle or RBT, you couldn't perhaps get a third full unit of Reavers. Otherwise yeah - I say go for the Eagle.
Buffing up the PGs/WLs isn't a bad go either. Really, whatever is cheaper for you to buy ($$) first, go that route. If you find yourself wanting to change it up, then switch over later. I'd rather see someone buy an extra Eagle or RBT, than buy a whole box of White Lions just for 2 extra models that they might decide they don't even want/need.

So mount the BSB for full effect, huh? I guess I worry about taking him out of range of the PG/WL combat when that happens, as sometimes I'll have the SHs charge something to chase it away (or break/destroy it). Maybe the PG shouldn't be breaking much, but I really can't afford to have them panic and run either. Thoughts on that?

I'm with you - I keep my BSB on foot and let the Silvers do their own thing, especially if I think there's a chance that I'll run the unit out ahead of the army for some reason (and face it: with Silvers, you usually will).
Adding him to the PGs would be good, because he'll hand them some nice killing-power, if you kit him out right. As usual, that's important for PG, because they can't really pull a lot of weight on their own (seriously, they never win/lose combat by much on their own, and I find they usually lose). They need that BSB around.

d_k_patt said:
Ah I differ in my use of silvers I have mine sit deep so that when my white lions and pg are in combat I smash in to break something. I like the bsb in there as after the charge gives you some high strength attacks.
It's rare I get a unit that I think the silvers can break and charge alone.

First: Tirranoc Chariots! They do the exact same thing, cheaper than Silvers, hit harder than Silvers. You can put them into units now too, which is silly.
Second: I don't think that he was using Silvers to solo enemy regiments, unless they're already beaten half-to-crap or are fleeing. In that respect though, I've watched one Ellyrian Reaver scare 300pts of fleeing Chaos Knights off the table before, since any charge will be met with a Flee Reaction once you're already on the run. When given the choice, always use your cheapest units to "extra charge" fleeing enemies. And in tournaments, remember that you can always declare against anything within your maximum range of 21" for Elf Cav (I specify 'tournaments' because that's really a mean thing to do in a Friendly game).

As for Archmage the only thing that needs line of sight is magic missile and really shadow is a buff de buff lore by putting him behind a unit your enemy won't have line of sight and if you think he is feeling threatened move him into a unit

Actually, you need Line of Sight for everything, but Magic Missiles also have to lie in your front arc.

The reason that most buffs don't seem to need LoS is because they worded "any units within XX inches", and Specific>General, so "any unit" overrules "a unit in LoS." At least, that's how my group plays it. But if the spell says something like
"[spell] is an Augment with a range of 18 inches"
Then technically, you do still need to have LoS to the target.

The problem is that "True Line of Sight = Fist Fights" at the table. Generally, most people seem to rule that if you're in a ranked regiment, you have LoS to anything in front of your own regiment - looking sideways through your ranks, or behind yourself through ranks, isn't going to work. Likewise, seeing "through" models of your won size category or larger (with the exception of monsters) is impossible without being on a higher footing than they are.

Otherwise though - I agree with you, except that I usually stay in my regiment and "dump out" whenever I think I'm about to eat one to the teeth. Standing around alone is a great way to get belted with a Magic Missile, and 2D6 S3 hits is scary when you're a 3W Wizard with maybe a 4+ Ward to save your butt. If you plan on spending much time alone, I'd go with a Ward and try to find some Magic Resistance.

d_k_patt · Apr 10, 2015

Ah I differ in my use of silvers I have mine sit deep so that when my white lions and pg are in combat I smash in to break something. I like the bsb in there as after the charge gives you some high strength attacks.

It's rare I get a unit that I think the silvers can break and charge alone.

As for Archmage the only thing that needs line of sight is magic missile and really shadow is a buff de buff lore by putting him behind a unit your enemy won't have line of sight and if you think he is feeling threatened move him into a unit

d_k_patt · Apr 12, 2015

Problem with a pg list (having run one) is that it takes a lot of buffs and debuffs. Though I favoured metal of all lores just seemed to compliment a list.

I have to agree with cap having previously run pg though I love how well the survive winning is the key strategy. To that end I would look at 2 blocks of lions around 28 for 4 ranks of 7. What lore is up to you again I like metal for the armour boost but that's just me. Shadow works well as it does in any elf list but should be wounding most thinks on a 2. Light can help if you boost with speed of light.

really the choices are yours we can all give advice based on our personal experiences but you should just give stuff a whirl and see how it goes, learn by doing.

Best of luck and keep us informed

Rikker · Apr 13, 2015

Thanks for all the advice! I played a game this weekend - went with the 6x4 PG with BSB, 7x4 WLs (with AM), 3 RBTs, eagle, 14 silvers and 2 units of 6 reavers.

Went up against an O&G army containing a goblin doom diver, a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, big boss in a unit of 40 or so biguns, night goblin archers w/ 2 fanatics, aracnarok, unit of squig herders w/ squigs, mangler squig, a large and small chariot.

Long story short, pit of shades ate 10 of the big 'uns. Foot of Gork SMASHED my WLs (knocked out 12 of them) since I didn't have any ward save for the unit (BotWD would fix that, or I could consider High magic for the ward boost?)

Buffs/debuffs mostly were countered/failed across the board (wonky magic phases). BUT - my PG unit with the BSB in it proceeded to slaughter the squigs (after being softened up by the RBTs). Then, they went toe to toe with the (now 30+) Big 'uns and ate their lunch. He challenged, my BSB dropped his war boss (all 3 attacks wounded, and he only saved 1, so obviously i can't count on that all the time), but then my PG killed an additional 10, and on average saves i lost about 7 PG. Big 'uns broke, fled 3 inches, and were run down. I was not playing against an optimized list, but my faith in PG is very high at the moment, because as you both mentioned, they don't die easily, and they can put out some damage (against these particular opponents - i'm sure against anything with more armor they will not fare as well), and because the WLs are extremely fragile against any kind of strong attacks. It doesn't help that they bounced off a unit of 3 trolls that had rallied (they were afraid of the trolls -.-).

All that said, I realize that this is one game against one opponent, and I can't draw any long term conclusions from it.

I DID do a fair amount of running around with the Silvers, so I'm glad I kept the BSB out of there.

I'm interested to hear that you dropped the PG altogether. I suppose I'm afraid that all WL units will just get shredded by anything magical or strong enough to bypass armor. Or maybe I just need to play more and get a feel for my timing, and when charging is ok vs. dancing around. So, I'll learn. But the theory crafting is interesting, so thanks again!

CaptainSarathai · Apr 13, 2015

Rikker said:
Thanks for all the advice! I played a game this weekend - went with the 6x4 PG with BSB, 7x4 WLs (with AM), 3 RBTs, eagle, 14 silvers and 2 units of 6 reavers.

Seems like a good list, actually.

Went up against an O&G army containing a goblin doom diver, a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, big boss in a unit of 40 or so biguns, night goblin archers w/ 2 fanatics, aracnarok, unit of squig herders w/ squigs, mangler squig, a large and small chariot.

That list also isn't too far from being optimized. Of course, it's still Orcs and Goblins, so it's not like you were slamming into Dark Elves or Chaos Warriors or anything, but you said that you're playing friendly games anyways.

Long story short, pit of shades ate 10 of the big 'uns. Foot of Gork SMASHED my WLs (knocked out 12 of them) since I didn't have any ward save for the unit (BotWD would fix that, or I could consider High magic for the ward boost?)

Lions are going to draw a lot of fire. I would consider getting them a Wardsave on there. I wouldn't take it from the High Magic though. Think about it, if you had High Magic, that sentence above would have been:
"I wish I had Pit of Shades. Foot of Gork smashes the Lions since I only had a 6+ Wardsave from casting High Magic"
And you said that you had a hard time casting augments anyways, so getting the +1Ward from High Magic wouldn't even be a guarantee.
I'd toss them the Banner of the World Dragon next time. If your Wizard is in there, you might as well, just to protect them/him from your own miscasts.

Then, they went toe to toe with the (now 30+) Big 'uns and ate their lunch. He challenged, my BSB dropped his war boss (all 3 attacks wounded, and he only saved 1, so obviously i can't count on that all the time), but then my PG killed an additional 10, and on average saves i lost about 7 PG. Big 'uns broke, fled 3 inches, and were run down.

You got pretty lucky. Consider:
18 PG attacks = 5.58 kills (or 6.67 if you have Razor Banner)
6x5 Orcs = 2.5 kills with Choppas (still 2 kills without)
Your challenge could have easily washed, but you already pointed that out. You killed 10 Orcs out 30, so you barely broke his Steadfast, assuming you hadn't lost many PGs and that he went wider instead of deep.

My faith in PG is very high at the moment, because as you both mentioned, they don't die easily, and they can put out some damage (against these particular opponents - i'm sure against anything with more armor they will not fare as well), and because the WLs are extremely fragile against any kind of strong attacks. It doesn't help that they bounced off a unit of 3 trolls that had rallied (they were afraid of the trolls -.-).

I'm interested to hear that you dropped the PG altogether. I suppose I'm afraid that all WL units will just get shredded by anything magical or strong enough to bypass armor. Or maybe I just need to play more and get a feel for my timing, and when charging is ok vs. dancing around. So, I'll learn. But the theory crafting is interesting, so thanks again!

Phoenix Guard will do nicely against the stuff that you're playing against. As a rule, those armies lack a lot of heavy armor or high toughness. You could convincingly put Spears against them, and probably do almost as well as your Phoenix Guard, because the strength and anti-armor bonus isn't as necessary.

That's really why we use White Lions - it's our best option for getting anything above S4 into the army. In my WoC army, I can count on having small regiments of models with S6 scattered throughout the list, and nothing in the list has less than S5. For my Empire army, I'm taking Knights with S5-6 in my Core, and have the option of snapping up Demigryphs with S5, can get S4 melee and shooting in my Core, and if I need to kill really big stuff, I've got the cannons.

My Elves have no such luck. I get S5 charges with my Cavalry, but the only way to get S5-6 on every turn is to field Lions or Swordmasters. Lions are statistically better than Swordmasters most of the time, so Lions it is. But I can't just field 10 of them, because they're fragile (you've noticed). I need enough bodies to get across the table while probably losing a few to shooting and magic. My regiments run close to 30, and I usually field 2 regiments. If you do the math, you'll see that you could do the same, if you dropped your Phoenix Guard.
So it's not that Phoenix Guard are bad at all - they're actually a great unit, and in an odd way, they're the primary difference between High/Dark Elves. So many other books would love to have Phoenix Guard. The problem isn't that they're bad - the problem is that we don't need them as much as they'd like. We have Spear Elves, and literally everything in our book is great at ripping apart lightly armored stuff like Orcs. Consider what you could have done with a block of Spears, at the same cost as those PGs:

40 Spears, 7-wide
28A = 24.89 hits, 8.29 wounds, 4.6 kills (vs 5.6 from PGs)
So the difference is a whole one kill, total. You could drop your PGs, put Spears into your Core, and replace the PGs with Lions. In fact, I would bet dollars to donuts that's what DK does (because I know he fields Spears in his lists). So if we took the list that you're running now, and made that kind of adjustment, you might have something like:

9 Silvers (+BSB for 5x2 total)
40 Spears

24 Lions
24 Lions

2 RBTs
2 Eagles

It's interesting to note that there is another major tactics site out there which ranks Phoenix Guard as the best unit in our book, if not the game altogether. However, they also claim that Swordmasters do more damage than White Lions, which is only true when faced with the type of enemies where Phoenix Guard also excel (low toughness, low armor). So it would seem that they're basing this on a meta where perhaps they're not dealing with quite as many high-toughness units. That, or, they're basing it on a different win/loss target than we are; right now, my army suffers against other Elves (particularly Dark Elves), but dominates Warriors of Chaos. With Phoenix Guard, I would be able to knock out Elves with ease, but would likely stall-out agaisnt Chaos.
Worth noting as well that Furbyballer (a member here, although he's been MIA for a little while) has had a lot of success on the US Masters circuit (finals is a comped event) with both units. In uncomped events, he was running a block of White Lions with the Everqueen for the 5+ Ward, plus Alith Aenar (I know, crazy) and another character with a 4+ Ward, to kick all the squishy models into the second rank (EQueen and so forth). The winner for 2014 was a High Elf player, again, Comped event, who used Phoenix Guard with the Razor Banner and had nothing in his entire army (except a Giant Blade Prince) with more than S4. Hell, he didn't even use Silver Helms.

d_k_patt · Apr 13, 2015

Cap is right I do use spears to great effect I either run 2 smaller deep units around 30 to 35 minimise return attacks or more often I nice big unit with silvers if I am running an infantry force I use sky cutters instead of reavers I could spend ages arguing why over reavers in an infantry force but I won't.

I then generally take 2 units of lions minimum 24 but more often 28 have Been know in larger games to smash up to 35. I take a level 4 metal in this list it really helps giving the whole army +1 to hit and armour piercing and 2+ to armour. If I want to give my white lions a ward in big games it's 2 annointed for the 6+ ward and magic resistance.

The huge difference between meta is how you pick your army . My area is chaos dwarfs lizards with elfs of all varieties. The pg excel against undead, o&g, skaven even ogres to a point they wound on 3s and 4s they re roll misses and break armour to a 6 or not at all. Chaos they can go up against a unit of warriors but I have a guy that has 2 blocks of tzeencth marked sword and board they get a 4+ followed by a 5 + + which is better than my nothing 4++ they wound on 3s me on 4s that's where you get crunch time. Lions wound on 2 hit on 3s and they get 6+ 5++ now alot more die sure I can't bounce wounds but I can win I guess it's down to what you want I have played a phoenix guard force to great effect and enjoyed it but I play against very optimised lists and though I try to avoid super cheese I still have to go all in to win.

Glad you won your first game. Couple of points fire for the trolls that's exactly when sisters are handy lol. White lions for the arachnid that will crumble in one round of cc and an eagle to bring out the fanatics I hate those bloody things.

Keep going and keep us informed

Rikker · Apr 15, 2015

Thanks again, you guys have given me plenty to think about!

I wonder if you're right - my (tiny) meta right now maybe PG are fine, but I'll have to play around and see what works against other opponents.

I am still playing with the idea of High magic, since (if I'm reading the book correctly) it says that ward save is increased for each casting of a high magic spell. Given the lower casting costs than shadow (overall) and the +1 to cast on my AM, I'm thinking that it might allow a 1-2 spell per phase expand to 2-3 spells. Now that wouldn't be AMAZING, certainly, but it would allow me to leave my list mostly untouched, whereas if I added BotWD, I'd have to pull something (likely an RBT). Also, I wonder if High doesn't give me more flexibility in the list to tailor to any given opponent at game time, albeit with cost of some of the fun spells (Withering, Enfeebling Foe). I'm a little frustrated that the Shadow passive is fairly useless to my playstyle, frankly, though it may end up not mattering at all.

I'll be up against an empire list soon (maybe this weekend) with an altar of Sigmar and a light coven, I'll let you know how that comes out!

The other thing I'm quickly learning is that I FAILED deployment the previous game. Unfortunately, always having fewer drops means that my opponent can mostly line up however he wants against me, so maybe I'm better off just having a plan of attack, with slight modifications post-deployment.

Oh - I got lucky in that game, didn't have to chaff up the fanatics unit. T1 I managed to have my RBTs shoot out the small chariot (which he had placed within 6 inches of the night goblin unit) and they promptly fled off the board. In case you're wondering... I was thrilled. He was less pleased ;P.

CaptainSarathai · Apr 15, 2015

Rikker said:
I am still playing with the idea of High magic, since (if I'm reading the book correctly) it says that ward save is increased for each casting of a high magic spell. Given the lower casting costs than shadow (overall) and the +1 to cast on my AM, I'm thinking that it might allow a 1-2 spell per phase expand to 2-3 spells

It would allow more spells, but remember that casting at a lower value makes it easier to Dispel as well. You might throw 2-3 spells, but you're still likely only getting one of them through.

I'm a little frustrated that the Shadow passive is fairly useless to my playstyle, frankly, though it may end up not mattering at all.

It's odd that you think that. What do you want your magic to do for your army? I would imagine that Shadow would work well for your army - the Phoenix Guard really almost need Shadow, and the only ones who don't benefit from Withering are really your White Lions. Everyone benefits from Enfeebling, and trust me - Miasma is good, you just have to plan ahead to use it.
The two spells that I don't like from Shadows, are Pit and Pendulum. If I get Pit of Shades against an army that doesn't have low-initiative targets, I drop it for Miasma. If I get Pendulum, I always drop it for Miasma. I don't even keep my fingers crossed for Mind Razor - I literally only want the first 4 spells of the lore.

I'll be up against an empire list soon (maybe this weekend) with an altar of Sigmar and a light coven, I'll let you know how that comes out!

Well, have fun with that. The Lions are going to have a rough game of it. Expect your PGs to shine again here - you're going to be eating a lot of Magic Missiles and Shooting on your way across the table, and they're probably the only guys who can expect to stand up to that kind of punishment.
I'm starting to suspect that you might want to just build a PG-centric army right out of the gates. Your regular opponents favor PG-builds, and any pickups or random games that you get, a well-done PG army isn't a bad take by any means.
Really study the Lore of Light and how that Coven-build works, because behind Shadow, that's probably the next most popular "ace up the sleeve" trick for your magic phase. Allarielle in a unit of White Lions (they'll get a 5+ Ward) and the Banner of the World Dragon or a Phoenix Captain (whatever they're called), plus the Banner of Avelorne and some extra Casters is just nuts. Getting +8 to cast and being able to use most of the spells to blanket your entire army... evil.

The other thing I'm quickly learning is that I FAILED deployment the previous game. Unfortunately, always having fewer drops means that my opponent can mostly line up however he wants against me, so maybe I'm better off just having a plan of attack, with slight modifications post-deployment.

Typically, yes. High Elves favor Death-stars, unfortunately. The idea is that if you can't dictate how the fight will go, you need to force your enemy to come to you. Going back to the Light Coven example above, that brick is worth upwards of 1000pts to your enemy. If he doesn't kill it somehow, even picking on the rest of your army might not win him the game. He has to come after you.
The dual-Lions lists function on the idea that if either of those units closes with the enemy, they'll get their points back. Two big units of them forces the opponent to split his firepower and generally just deal with you, or else you're going to tear him to pieces.

I'm working on trying to list-out and maybe get some test games in with a 1-2 PG "brick" Infantry army. The focus on low-strength is worrying me though, so I'll have to find a way to get around that, somehow.

d_k_patt · Apr 15, 2015

If you were to go pg centric (not bad in any way) I have been toying with a list to get my pg army off the shelf I blame your enthusiasm for them.

A level 4 shadow as cap said he is need for pg and caradyn incarnation of fire bsb. You have the +1 to wound fire spell cascading cloak and a barrage of others could be helpful and he is fighty with 7 str 6 attacks with d3 wounds tough 5 7 wounds so on and so forth could be worth a look.

Hope all goes well let us know how it goes empire your list should fair well put your lions into and knights or demis as your priorities let pg take all else.

d_k_patt · Apr 17, 2015

Cap is right unless you play end times then high is good you can spam spells. If you want to run high take the book of ashur and tali of endurance.

So you don't play named characters that's a shame as the new caradyn is brilliant. You could do a non orthodox light star my friend at 2500pts he takes queen with lore of light 2 Lore masters of hoeth and the banner in an 8 wide 4 deep unit of white lions botwd 2 units of 25 pg silvers and reavers it's very effective if not character heavy on points.

I have to agree with cap on all his points

Ofc what we give is simply advice let us know how the empire game goes

CaptainSarathai · Apr 17, 2015

d_k_patt said:
You could do a non orthodox light star my friend at 2500pts he takes queen with lore of light 2 Lore masters of hoeth and the banner in an 8 wide 4 deep unit of white lions botwd 2 units of 25 pg silvers and reavers it's very effective if not character heavy on points.

Holy crap! I think you might have your numbers off here, just a bit. Without upgrades to commands or any magic gear beyond the Banner of Avelorn, that assortment of models would run you 2,684pts. I checked, because it's very similar to what I'd want to run if I were taking the same approach. Hell, I couldn't even get it to work when I swapped the Lions for Sisters of Avelorn! If your numbers are whacked, I'd say that it's probably just units of 20 all across the board: 22 Lions w/ Allie+BSB for 6x4, and then two blocks of 19 PGs with a Loremaster in each. Even then, your Loremasters won't have any gear.

In the end, for the type of list that I wanted, I actually wound up going with a 'Host of the Eternity King' from ET: Khaine. It was the only way to get a bunch of really sturdy infantry-bricks of Elves into the army, with the 4+ on the Corsairs for Core, bolstered by Loremasters, and then a block of PGs with my L4 and a kitted BSB. You lose out on Allarielle and the Banner this way though, and I don't feel like the army really adds anything over a traditional HE Coven build, and certainly doesn't add much over the stupidly OP stunts you can pull with an Eternity Host list.

Ofc what we give is simply advice let us know how the empire game goes

This. Definitely this.

d_k_patt · Apr 18, 2015

Maybe it was one at 2500 and 2 at 3000 I know he likes to slam into characters he sometimes splits them of one to each pg unit but prefers to keep them all to one unit says it's hard for some one to kill a unit like that and it is.

I like my host force I take my core is dark elves 30 dark shards with shields 2 units of dark rides a level 4 high book tali of endurance goes in white lions on one side of the cross bows and they love hand of glory 60 shots on 2+ don't mind if I do. lore master armour of silver steel tali of pres in another unit of white lions for regen spell and other fun he can do and dark elf standard armour of destiny sea dragon cloak great weapon on cold one 2 units of lions and 14 cold one knights depending on points I will take 3 cold one chariots and move my standard into a chariot

I must admit I do favour my dark elves these days I have had alot of success with my black guard cauldron unit I have even minced through a white lion star with them.

Any who of topic a little there hope the game against the empire goes well remember white lions to take on demis knights and steam tank pg for state troopers and anything with a 4+ armour save or worse though watch for priests one of my fave units for my empire list is my 59 halbadiers with a priest cheap and can butcher they can get a 5++ in cc with re rolls to wound, as long as they don't get shot to hell which they generally don't people are often to worried about the double steam tank and double demis to care.

Best of luck

Rikker · Apr 22, 2015

So I got a chance to play that Empire game on Saturday night. He brought a soft list. Archlector on a war altar, lvl 4 and a lvl 2 light coven, 1 steam tank, 1 unit of 3 demis, some outriders, a few knights, a unit of handgunners, a big brick of halberdiers with some swordsman detachments, and a cannon.

I was playing the same list, brick of PG, brick of WL, Bsb, lvl 4 (shadow), 3 RBTs, 1 eagle, 2x 6 reavers, and a unit of silverhelms.

His outriders vanguarded up a little far, and all of his shooting was miserable first turn. His banishment only dropped 2 silvers (I let it through to get a feel for how much it would hurt, he rolled like crap, and i saved a few), and I stopped everything else of his.

So, HE turn 1, I charged his outriders with the silvers and wiped them (he couldn't flee, would have gone off the board). Everything stuck. I put a couple of wounds on his steam tank with the RBTs, moved the reavers up to chaff up the demis, and sent the eagle after his cannon.

Turn 2: he charged my reavers with a tiny detachment. Something got nudged I think, because he shouldn't have been able to wheel the demis past my reavers, but i didn't specify so we let it go. He moved up with them, but didn't re-set them properly and gave my WLs a juicy flank charge. Steam tank went into my helms, not great, but I don't really care as much because if I keep him stuck for the rest of the game, that's fine by me. Outriders plus steam tank = cost of the helms. Shooting damaged an RBT but didn't kill it. (he hit with the cannon and rolled 1 wound).

HE turn 2 - WLs went into the flank of the demis, only dropped 1, but broke him easily through combat res and he ran off the board. Unfortunately I had to pursue... it was about an 8" run to get to the edge of the board, and I just couldn't take the chance that he rallied there.

PGs went into a detachment and ate its face, he stuck on snake eyes! Eagle went into the cannon and did 2 wounds to it, which I'll take because it's done shooting.

Everything went downhill from there for him, he combo charged my PG brick, but I finished his detachment, Wls were coming back, my BSB managed to drop his archlector who charged in (I think that took 2 or 3 rounds of combat though... big pillowfight), Silverhelms kept the steam tank tied up for the rest of the game, and the knights flank charged my PG but just... fluffed their attacks. The ward save wasn't helping him any, and I had whittled them down some as well through shooting.

All in all, he COULD have hurt me more, but made some poor tactical decisions around line of sight and movement (he really should have let me come to him, since he had me outranged with the banishments). In his defense, I think that was his second or third game ever, and first against HE, so... he's still tweaking his list and learning. Also, I know he wasn't hammering on the double banishment like he should have been, and in some cases he had the dice to do it. But, fun game nonetheless!

CaptainSarathai · Apr 22, 2015

Rikker said:
So I got a chance to play that Empire game on Saturday night. He brought a soft list. Archlector on a war altar, lvl 4 and a lvl 2 light coven, 1 steam tank, 1 unit of 3 demis, some outriders, a few knights, a unit of handgunners, a big brick of halberdiers with some swordsman detachments, and a cannon.

Actually, depending on numbers and minor equipment and so forth, that's not a "soft" Empire list at all, really. My own "regular" Empire list is pretty similar to that, except that I've come around to focusing on large blocks of Swordsmen instead of Halberds, and Crossbows > Handgunners. Outriders are disgusting though, if you take enough of them.

I think most of where he sold himself short, was probably just in minor tactical mistakes, which added up over time. That's not stealing a win from anybody - I've seen that kind of thing happen on both sides of the table in tournament play. Kicking a noob, or pitting a hardcore list against a "fluff list" is going to diminish a win, but beating a balanced list like his fair-and-square because he made a few blunders, that's just how the game works. Good job on the win!

d_k_patt said:
Well sounds like a lot of bad moves from your opponent should get him to join the forum so we can help him learn some sneaky empire tricks.

The demi white lion pair up could have gone very differently but that's the joy of warhammer

Absolutely - if he'll sign up, I play Empire, as do a lot of the veterans on the forum. It's a slow subsection (our Warhammer section in general, is kind of slow right now thanks to 9th) but it's really funny, because if someone pops their head in with a question, you normally get about half the vets on the whole forum dropping by to answer. It seems almost everyone plays Empire, just not as a primary army. The same seems to be true of Brets as well, oddly enough.

I'm not sure about the Demi's/Lions combat having gone any differently. I think the Lions would have still won the fight, probably even in the first round. They're hitting before the Demis, on 3's, wounding on 3/4's (can't remember if Demis are T5) and knocking their armor down to a 4/5+ depending on gear. Demis shouldn't be fielded with enough bodies to 'Step Up', so every 3w is a kill, and drops quite a bit off the effectiveness of the knights. Demis aren't exactly Skull Crushers, they're a lot closer to Chaos Knights or Blood Knights really. You want to charge them in and aim for flanks and smaller units. You put 3 Crushers on the table and it's 235pts with kit - it's obvious that they're meant to hit full regiments, they're priced to bring about 20 WhiteLions with them (they won't, but there's a reason). Demis are something less than 200pts for 3 models. They cost a little more than a block of 6 DragonPrinces, so you should expect them to act in roughly the same fashion - hit flanks, chase down smaller units, etc.

Rikker said:
There were several other tactical issues, but he'll learn! I was telling him to drop the handgunners for a volley gun, not sure if he will. I'll see if I can get him to join up. He might.

If he's over on Core, then he could certainly do that. Otherwise, Crossbows are typically better than Handguns, especially in your meta. The 30" is a big deal, and they're still S4 (you swap 6" for Armor Piercing). The VolleyGun is good if you have a lot of artillery to defend, because it is basically a regiment of Handgunners that can swivel in place before firing. It makes it good for dealing with enemy Scouts, Ambushers, "Tunneler/Buried" units, and anything that might get behind your missile-infantry (like Eagles and Fast Cav).
Other factors could definitely be:

>> Re-read the STank rules: you can fire the Steam Cannon through combats, as well as the SteamGun.
>> Greatweapons on Knights of the Inner Circle: ICKnights do what most people think Demis should do - block up into large units and then play a grinder game. They're still ASL, and they drop to a 2+ Save, so you want to hit flanks and such, but they're the best option for high-strength hits in an Empire list, outside of Artillery.
>> Lances on Demigryph Knights: the Demis are doing most of the damage here, the Cavalry Halberds are a waste. Better to have the Knight transfer his 1+ Armor down to the Demigryph, to keep your S5s and Stomps in the game longer.
>> Swordsman parents, with Halberd Detachments: if you're not using Lore of Shadow, Halberds get wrecked in close combat. The question is whether you want to be casting spells to keep your Halberds alive, or casting spells to give your Swordsmen a few extra kills? Most of the time, I count on my Core infantry losing the fight, which is why I put them in huge blocks for Steadfast. Swordsmen still lose the fight, but they lose fewer models and hold onto Steadfast longer, and when I flank a regiment in to help them, the Swordsmen won't give up tons of CR to the enemy.
If he wants to keep his Halberdiers, they make alright Detachment regiments to the Swords. They can Support Charge into a flank, where they get hit less and still get to pump some S4 attacks into the fight.

d_k_patt · Apr 22, 2015

Well sounds like a lot of bad moves from your opponent should get him to join the forum so we can help him learn some sneaky empire tricks.

However I don't want to take away from your victory you set your tactics and stuck to them and fought a well won victory

.

The demi white lion pair up could have gone very differently but that's the joy of warhammer

Rikker · Apr 22, 2015

Yep - he basically handed me the demis on a silver platter (only one could attack and I still lost 4 or 5 lions). If I had charged him in the front I still would have charged though - I would have been able to attack with many more lions, and maybe dropped 2 (possibly all 3, though unlikely). There were several other tactical issues, but he'll learn! I was telling him to drop the handgunners for a volley gun, not sure if he will. I'll see if I can get him to join up. He might.

d_k_patt · Apr 22, 2015

He did indeed actually you wouldn't have got that may more lions but I guess every one counts you certainly would have still ground them out but might have taken 2 rounds.

To be honest empire like most armies work better focused so many empire players spend so long trying to be balanced there list suffers.

Hell blasters are good for a gun line army static with 2-3 cannons and mortars and 2 hell blasters and even then I steer away from hand Gunners. My suggestion is more out riders point for point they are better than hand Gunners. They are the price of 2 hand Gunners (ish) for that you get +1 bs a 5 or 4 + armour save their mobile less so with barding but tbh I have played with and without and actually vanguard is not that great for them to close to the enemy can be changed in Turn one it's a waste, I only take barded put them right to the edge of my deployment and get 2-3 rounds of shooting 10 of them drops 30 shots normally hitting on 5s as you can't move and shoot with them. So in conclusion outriders are the best swap.

Anyway back to elves did you see any glaring weaknesses in your force? I.e bolt throwers not doing much after turn 2?

Rikker · Apr 22, 2015

d_k_patt said:
Anyway back to elves did you see any glaring weaknesses in your force? I.e bolt throwers not doing much after turn 2?

Not really, honestly. I understand what you're saying, and maybe this is only good for his list, specifically, but I liked that after his shooting, etc, I still had 2 bolt throwers that I could shoot at his Steam tank with (if it had managed to wipe the silvers), and I kept blasting his knights until they got into combat turn 3, and there were always handgunners to shoot. These were obviously only contingency things, or amenities, if you will, but if he had kept his outriders alive I could have shot at those...etc. It gives him targets that I don't *need* to keep alive to win, and if they live... they can make his life painful.

CaptainSarathai said:
Actually, depending on numbers and minor equipment and so forth, that's not a "soft" Empire list at all, really. My own "regular" Empire list is pretty similar to that, except that I've come around to focusing on large blocks of Swordsmen instead of Halberds, and Crossbows > Handgunners. Outriders are disgusting though, if you take enough of them.

I think most of where he sold himself short, was probably just in minor tactical mistakes, which added up over time. That's not stealing a win from anybody - I've seen that kind of thing happen on both sides of the table in tournament play. Kicking a noob, or pitting a hardcore list against a "fluff list" is going to diminish a win, but beating a balanced list like his fair-and-square because he made a few blunders, that's just how the game works. Good job on the win!

He's newer to the game than I am, so that's part of it for sure, but yes - tactical mistakes made a difference. Good to know that it's not a super-soft list, I wasn't sure if I was getting a good taste of Empire that way. And thank you!

d_k_patt · Apr 22, 2015

Wow I missed some conversation there. Sorry cap I never ment that the demis would win let's face it they wouldn't unless helped by light which I do. The lions would be wounding on 2s they are toughness 4 But 1+ get a priest in there for a 5++ and those lions attacks you get a 4+ followed by a 5++ which is easy done. My empire list is very different and aggressive and I find my halbadiers do a really good job but again they have a priest those guys rock.

Glad it's going well hope you get some more games under your belt and keep letting us know how it goes and the development of your army. Won't be to long before they start to develop a character lol

Rikker · Apr 24, 2015

Yep - thanks! I definitely need to play some more with this set, but yes - I'm quickly finding a playstyle I like, though it may be similar to other players.

That said, for at least a game or two, this list is going on hold while I test a skaven list I built and see if I really want to keep them as a second army.

d_k_patt · Apr 24, 2015

Well good luck with the elves they can be an extremely rewarding army both in terms of gaming and style. One of my favourite conversions was actually combing archers and spears I think the clothed lower body and kneeling front rank really makes them look good, to be fair when I first modelled them it was for my tiranoc force they were suppose to look light and mobile to keep pace. Oh how I miss my tiranoc list.

I hope you stick it out I find the best way to be a better gamer is to play with a multitude of armies (though that could be my excuse just to buy lots of armies).

Let us know if you have any questions and have fun

Rikker · May 6, 2015

So, I've been thinking long and hard about this list, and I'm starting to think that maybe Shadow isn't the way to go for me. I'm debating playtesting Light - I'm not planning to build a council, I want to keep the single caster at 2k pts (I could easily add a lvl 2 at 2500 pts), so banishment wouldn't be the main point of the list. I'd probably be looking more at Birona's Timewarp, Net of Amontyk, pha's protection, that type of thing. Really, really looking at timewarp as a way to turn units into ballistic missiles (though I understand there's an entire turn's lag built in). An 18 inch base movement on Silvers, or a nice 10 inch base on any other units, can really make sure that I get the charges I want, or just get into combat against enemies that outrange me, etc.

I'm thinking it will help dictate movement better than shadow (yeah, shadow can reduce movement by d3, but that generally hasn't helped a whole lot in the past.) I'm leaning towards overloading movement a little, and trying to very carefully pick my battles, though obviously that's only going to work some of the time. This *should* help that.

Thoughts?

d_k_patt · May 6, 2015

I can't say that light is any good for buffing for elves already fast and asf high movement.

I'd like to pitch metal to you I love it and find the glittering robe and blades of albion to both be really good spells for elves. Failing metal life.

I'm sure cap can advise you better on the light coven but I'm Sure that's the only reason to play light with elves

CaptainSarathai · May 7, 2015

I'll agree with DK that Light really only shines (haha) when you use it in a Coven. Especially with Allie and her "Flag of +4 Bubbles". The fact is that Banishment with a Coven is the most reliable option for hard-hitting in the game, the Sig-spell competes perfectly with any other Direct-Damage sigs (plus the option to be vicious against certain targets), and being able to bubble-out your spells with a massive casting bonus is awesome.

That said, I'm not the biggest fan of Light Covens. That's not to say that they aren't ah-mazing, but I don't think that you get a very good return on your investment - with or (especially) without Allie. On the table, most of your casting phase with a Light Coven comes down to spamming the damage spells. Banishment is there for wrecking an opponent's tougher units, but you're normally multi-casting Burning Gaze more than anything.

The catch-22 is that once you've sunk points into the Coven, you're usually not going to have points free for multiple units worthy of the buffs. The Coven will usually get dumped into a single regiment, as there's a need to protect the "squishies" (notably: Allie and her BSB will only have a 5+ Ward, and little/no armor) and you want to keep all of your Wizards close. Usually you end up with a Deathstar. This usually means White Lions if you have Allie and her 5+ Ward, or Phoenix Guard if you don't. The problem with the Phoenix Guard is that they need the Razor Banner if they want to kill anything, but you really want the Banner of the World Dragon so that you don't blow up your Wizards and half your unit every time you Miscast.

So in the end, a Light Star is about using Magic to make up for our otherwise terrible ranged-combat abilities, and then 1D6-buffing a single regiment with all the good stuff and just hammering it into the enemy. It's a very powerful army, but it's very one-dimensional, and Daemon players would rather slit their own throats with a rusty spoon than ever play against you.

Otherwise, Light isn't a hideous Lore for elves, but it doesn't add much beyond what you've said: the movement buffs. And it gets very expensive when you start trying to bubble the spells out. You're right though - the only spells that you're really looking for are probably Speed of Light and Timewarp, maybe Net. The Sig doesn't really help you out, if you get something that you don't want all you'll end up grabbing is a Magic Missile. It's in the same boat as High Magic, really (worth mentioning: High Magic can give you a huge movement boost) - you want about 50% of the spells, and everything else is either situational or worthless. Would be great if you could choose your spells or be a Loremaster, but we can't exactly do that.

I've said before that Magic isn't something that you should plan a strategy around. Look at your army, determine what you need, and see if you can get it from your armybook first. If you want a mobile "pick your battles" type of army, then you might want to start fielding a lot more Cavalry. I've run an all-Cav army and had great success with it, although it does require some different thinking to get the most of it. I will stand by the fact that High Elves are one of the 4 armies in the game that can do an "all cav" army (also Dark Elves, Empire, Brets).

When I pick a Lore of Magic, I look at a few things:
1) How many spells from the lore do I want?
2) How do these spells make my army better?
3) How good is the Sig Spell (for the spells I don't want)
4) How hard are these spells to cast?
In that order.

My favorite "Elf Lores" (this includes Dark Elves) are Shadow, Metal, and Death. The reasons are simple-
:: Shadow makes S3/T3 Elves a problem for my enemy, rather than a problem for me. The only spells that I will not want are Pit, Pendulum, and Steed. And of those three spells, Pit/Pendulum are actually useful at times. The Sig is also amazing. Every time I field a L4 Shadow, I end up with the sig spell, and don't mind.

:: Metal lets me deal with armor. It also gives me an almost 100% "turn over" on my Attacks-to-Hits ratios, since most Elves will be hitting on a 2+ and quite a few get rerolls. On the whole, it's a lot more situational than Shadows, which bothers me. You can use Shadow to overcome Armor by making it much easier to inflict wounds (or just casting Okkam's, if you're lucky). Metal however, will deal with one of the biggest problems that Elves will face - foes with heavy armor. Being able to cook Chaos Warriors alive when they're one of the only things that can deal with White Lions head-on, is awesome. Metal even has a good anti-horde spell, basically guaranteed to kill off 33% of whatever you cast it at, and it can "auto-pop" characters inside the unit. A lot of people also really under-estimate Golden Hounds as well, because they forget that if the character passes his Look Out Sir rolls, the hits are commuted to the unit around him. So you can target their character, and then kill a huge chunk of their unit instead - whereas most character-sniping spells will either wound the Character, or do nothing.

:: Death isn't as popular an option for High Elves, but I love it. High Elves have great leadership, but we're not good at handling challenges. Death gives us a slew of awesome character-sniper spells, and the Sig actually keys off of Leadership. SoulBlight isn't as good as Withering/Enfeebling, but it combines both effects into a single spell, and is well worth the casting value (and is bubble-able). The real shine however, is Doom and Darkness. Elves have a tough time beating Steadfast, but Doom just straight ignores that. I picked this lore up after someone else Doomed my White Lions and sent them packing from combat. In my last game, Doom would have won me the game on T3 (was using my Warriors, but still). Purple-Sun is really hard to cast, but it hangs over your opponent's head like a guillotine blade. Even against I3 armies, you're going to kill off 50% of whatever regiments it touches. It is the most reliable of all the similar spells (Dwellers, Final Trans) when it comes to killing huge swathes of enemy units. Better still, there are 4 armies in the game who will simply walk away from the table when you cast this; Dwarfs, either Undead, and Ogres. If you have a Shadows caster on the table, Death becomes the most broken lore in the game.

Rikker · May 7, 2015

Interesting points, and I was afraid you were both going to say that.

I'll look into Metal and Death - your points about Light make me think that IF I wanted to go for the movement, I should probably look at High instead (as you mentioned) because that at least adds the ward save buff, and the movement spell is easier to cast. Plus it has a little more offensive capability, and better buffing.

Ok, I'll try some magic rotations. Whee!

2000 Point Army, Friendly (All Comers)

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