Falcons still useless? They've been uber since the old codex.

Your opponent will run out of anti-tank some time. If your falcons are shaken in the early turns then focus other firepower on the anti-tank guns. They spend the early turns moving fast
to transport units and the later turns blasting stuff.

Fire Prisms just use their range to protect them. Try to place them after an enemy devastator squad so that you can deploy away from them.

Sure eldar tanks can be shaken easily but you have other guns. Use them to give your falcons covering fire. Or drop some banshees/harlequins out of the falcon and tie up your enemies anti-tank in cc.

 

Sorry, I guess the still was more directed at the Fire Prisms . . .

. . . but I still have those struggles with the Falcons, but as you said, if they get shaken they can still drop off their goods.

As for using the Fire Prism from a distance . . . what is the standard board that people use? Isn't 4 by 6 pretty standard with most missions being long table edge deployment zones? In that case I don't see where you can really use the range of the fire prism to outdistance enemy shots . . . A devastator squad, a coupla las/plas squads, whathaveyou, can all pretty much cover the whole board from the center of their deployment zone.

What other guns would you say need to be supporting your Falcons/Fire Prisms?

 

Mind you, if I had two Fire Prisms, I can tell you straight off how target numero uno would be for the first combined template. In fact, I can't think of a better target than a devi squad. You'll probably be killing expensive heavy weapons, and giving your gunships better freedom of action.

Which segues nicely into my next point. People often have limited AT assets on the table. As an Eldar player, I find running away does very well against many fast assault troops. What used to give me problems were jump troops, and I find I really, really, love shining spears for those. But I digress.... Point being, if they can see the Prism, the Prism can see them. And I know I'm not the only one who starts his tanks behind hills. They'll get one shot at least, and I often send that first shot into their AT, to ensure more. Plink the Predator with Wave Serpent mounted EMLs, melt the Havocs with Fire Prisms, and then meet the sheer joy of tank heavy eldar.

 

dark reapers, war walkers, vypers, jetbikes, shining spears, dragons in a wave serpent, avengers in a wave serpent, hawks and even warp spiders are all designed to suddenly take out 1 enemy squad. Turn 1 move a serpent 36" at those devs/predator. Turn 2 jump out and melt, shoot them, assault them whatever.

Most boards are 72" long aren't they? 48" doesn't cover THAT much. And your fire prisms are more mobile to stay at about the 60ish" mark.

For my mechanised eldar I basically treat all my units as one trick ponies. If I see an enemy land raider on the board carrying lascannons then my dragons jump out and melt it. Sure I lose my dragons next turn but my tanks are then safe to finish the game.

Almost all my games end up with my entire army dead except a pair of falcons, blasting away at whatever parts of his army I didn't deem a threat to them and hence didn't kill with something jumping out of a transport (or warp spiders).

Pick out the threats to your army and send in a suicide squad to get it. That's what specialists are all about. :yes:

 

dark reapers, war walkers, vypers, jetbikes, shining spears, dragons in a wave serpent, avengers in a wave serpent, hawks and even warp spiders are all designed to suddenly take out 1 enemy squad. Turn 1 move a serpent 36" at those devs/predator. Turn 2 jump out and melt, shoot them, assault them whatever.

Dark Reapers = too expensive and too short ranged and otherwise not in line with my army ideas

War Walkers = crap BS and frail . . . good with multi-shot anti-infantry weapons, but I'd
never use them as anti-tank

Vypers = same problems as War Walkers

Jetbikes/Shining Spears = I see these guys as a viable option, my only problem is that they are so expensive both in point cost and monetarily . . . stinks . . .

Swooping Hawks = I have a unit of these and use them, but they are very frail and need to get in CC to be effective for anti-tank, which for me at least has been easier said than done.

Warp Spiders = I just can't get excited about warp spiders. They are expensive, short ranged, they can kill themselves, they have no armor penetration whatsoever, and they're crap in close combat.

Most boards are 72" long aren't they? 48" doesn't cover THAT much. And your fire prisms are more mobile to stay at about the 60ish" mark.

Yeah, but that is assuming someone puts all their anti-tank at one extreme flank of their deployment zone. That simply isn't going to happen. I don't know who you play with, but my opponents are much better at covering as much distance and leaving me as few hiding spots as possible.

 

To get the most out of fire prisms you have to use Line of Sight quite heavily. Using angles and cover helps a lot to keep a fire prism active for as along as possible.

Nothing else in the Eldar army has that high S large blast template, and the smaller template is much more useful than a bright lance vs tanks.

In terms of range, it's usually difficult to outrange lascannons, I've found. I've managed it in cleanse, but in missions where both sides have a long edge as a deployment zone, you're usually going to be in range of at least one AT gun.

You've just got to use LoS to make sure it's no more than one .

 

Your opponents won't always be space marines with lascannons. Just because the thought of a single weapon makes you think Falcons and Prisms are useless, doesn't mean they are ineffective against everything else. They are very hard to kill and can deal out a good amount of damage.

 

To be completely honest, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk or anything, but it sounds like you're trying to play the wrong army. In one post, you've listed your issues with every single Fast Attack option and most of the Heavy Support.

So, if you don't like any of the FA choices, and most of the HS choices, why play Eldar at all?

 

My opponents rarely put their heavy support in the middle of the board. That makes it ridiculously easy for me to assault it and take it out.

Dark Reapers are short ranged...lol. Oh dear lascannons can reach anywhere on the board but my dark reapers can't reach a damn thing. :| (sorry for the sarcasm)

Unit's I was talking about is not whether they are good or not. They all are but thats beside the point. In order to keep falcons/fire prisms safe you have to use OTHER unit's to remove the enemy anti-tank. That means using unit's designed to deal a lot of damage in one shooting/assault phase so you can quickly destroy the enemy anti tank (ravager, pred, devs/havocs, railgun w/e).

For example turn 1 your falcon gets shaken. Use that turn to move (and maybe tank shock). Meanwhile say... the war walkers unload a lot of firepower to kill that troublesome squad. Or the shining spears charge into it.

The purpose of this thread was to figure out how to stop prisms/falcons being permantly shaken wasn't it? that last post brother-wags seems to say you are looking for a good anti-tank unit which is COMPLETELY different.

 

The purpose of this thread was to figure out how to stop prisms/falcons being permantly shaken wasn't it? that last post brother-wags seems to say you are looking for a good anti-tank unit which is COMPLETELY different.

Ah, perhaps this is the problem . . . I was viewing Falcons and Fire Prisms as a primary source of anti-tank. I guess my view has always been that heavy support generally kills heavy support, etc . . . so that pre(/mis)conception might be a source of alot of my struggles.

I don't believe that I am playing the wrong army, although its not like eldar is my only army anyway. Not understanding the army or knowing how to use it effective is at least a few clicks on the dial away from that being the wrong army Perhaps my ignorance deserves some sarcasm and flames and I will accept them as constructive criticism .

The reason I play Eldar is because I love the background, I love the loose (and I stress loose) idea of "space-elves," and most of the models are gorgeous.

Yes, I do have alot of frustrations with them . . . I'm more of a space marine mentality player. I'm simple and straightforward. I need a 3+ save to help me get through my stupid decisions . . . but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try, haha.

So what would you guys say is the most used eldar unit for the purpose of anti-tank? Or do to the many (apparent) options is it as varied as player personalities?

 

i'd have to say the most used unit for anti tank specifically would be fire dragons, but you have to put them in a wave serpent of falcon, otherwise they'll get shot to pieces. One of their downfalls is that after they jump out of their transport and kill a tank they're almost certainly going to die. But when a unit of fire dragons is in a transport its almost guaranteed that they'll take a tank out. I use them specifically to go after armour 14 vehicles like land raiders and leman russ'

Wraithlords armed with a brightlance and eldar missle launcher are also common.
The falcon is good for anti tank but you have to get it around to the sides and backs of other tanks. Vypers with a scatter laser and shuriken cannon are good for this too.

 

I have to admit that neither the Fire Prism nor the Falcon are prime candidates for anti-tanking, while they do have the capacity other units can do better. This is from my personal experience anyway, though that could just be me sucking at rolling dice. Anyways, I find that these vehicles are better for other roles, mainly knocking out elite infantry though they can also handle horde. This is possible with the Falcon equipped with a Starcannon and Shuriken cannon and the Fire Prism utlising it's concentrated shot.

 

Power armor is a crutch for a weak player!!!!!! :shifty:

Eldar is all about finesse and support. For instance, you say how you don't like a lot of the units' BS, well, take a Farseer with Guide. Or how Warp Spiders have no ap, but they do cause a lot of wounds which means a lot of armor saves.

Everything has a certain role. Make them do what they're supposed to do and they will work wonders.

 

Falcons? Crap? HELL NO! Give them Star engines and don't bother firing, just zoom up and down your enemy's deployment zone and such, they're gonna fail a LD test eventually.

Bugger shooting when you're a God Falcon. Tank Shocking and potentially transporting Harlequins/Fire Dragons/Wraithguard is a much better deal.

Ah, perhaps this is the problem . . . I was viewing Falcons and Fire Prisms as a primary source of anti-tank. I guess my view has always been that heavy support generally kills heavy support, etc . . . so that pre(/mis)conception might be a source of alot of my struggles.

If you want that, try playing Tau or SMurfs. Their Heavy Support vehicles can kill tanks quite nicely.

 

Fire prisms are useful anti-tank. But it really depends on what you're facing - the beauty of the prism is that it is capable of taking on a range of targets. The focused shot is great when you're up against ordnance tanks - having a reliable high S shot (that is better than a bright lance) is exceptionally useful.

Same goes for the dispersed option - facing infantry? Then no problem.

It's accurate, and doesn't have some of the downsides associated with weapons like the bright lance.

The fire prism is a good tank, but like everything in the codex these days it doesn't solve all issues. I like it, others don't - which is just how a codex should be.

 

We all like our crutches, and Eldar players have to admit we have a huge one, but its attuned to a different quality than the one MEQ players have.

The various flavors of power armor give 3+ saves and speak to Assuredness. Make a mistake, and you have the stats to survive some bone-headed moves. It's a crutch, true, but then Eldar have one too.

The Eldar crutch speaks to sheer naked aggression. You'll notice that the counter's to BB Wags point about lascannons was basically "we have the tools to wind up and give thems thats carrying them a massive whack to the face." An Eldar mech army can deploy behind terrain, and then, regardless of who gets first turn, zip out and deliver a heck of a punch.

Eldar mobility can be quite a crutch. I'm not knocking people who play power armor - its quite tempting. I once tried a Night Lords list, because I had power armor envy, and wanted to keep the mobility. Gave it up - no varient of Space Marine list has enough claws and teeth for my taste. However, in a game which power armor-centric, the crutches of the other factions are not as apparent. I need my skimmers, S6 weaponry, and I5 close combat troops - so there a crutch.

A digression, I guess, but here's how it relates. The lascannon devestators are an AT trump card from the point of view of putting power-armored meat around them. Many Eldar units are trump cards from the point of view getting their the fastest with the most pain.

 

A couple more important points about why falcons rock.

They are fire magnets. If the falcons are out in front they have to roll for every single infantry unit that wants to shoot past them. Some will fail and it is wonderfull.

SM player: I shoot your Avengers with my triple heavy bolter dev squad.
Me: Roll for it.
SM player: What?
(Show SM player who never uses it the targeting rule and smile as heavy bolter rounds ping off the falcon).

But your opponent will often spend more of their firepower on the thing willingly. The fire dragons inside may have something to do with that, but the bottom line is I often find my falcons absorb the vast majoraty of my opponents early shooting and generally only end up losing a weapon for it.


The second factor is their mobility. It really makes a huge difference. My default battle plan involves setting up pretty much all along my long board edge and then when the battle starts I move my units hard to one side. The result is that most of my army stomps on half of his while the other half sits around with no targets.

For long range opponents it helps to make sure they don't make a lame board where all the terrain is hugging the edges and nothing that blocks LOS is near the middle(which they all too often will try and do).

For short range/assault armies I often have basically an autowin. They just aren't able to bring their forces to bear in time. And often have to make choices like "Do I move in and assault that six man dire avenger squad taking my 300 pt unit out of the est of the battle or do I move in towards the main force and let the avengers shoot my unit in the butt the whole way?"

Again. It is wonderfull.