Well, if you don't mind some minor proxying I'd say he should try running his Falcon as a second Fire Prism, and his Guardians as Dire Avengers. Also, he could use a second Wave Serpent but doesn't seem to have the models for it, but if he would be allowed to proxy something for a game or two I think he'd be a much happier camper. Normally one would in addition to the things I mentioned above have a Farseer with doom and a group of either Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees in a third Wave Serpent. This with some upgrades should be roughly 1000 points and serves as the base of the majority of Eldar lists that are played today.

10-man squads of Guardians fold like air without an Avatar to make them Fearless, and even then they aren't really that reliable. And Swooping Hawks really do suck, and should not be taken at all.

Having played Eldar for a long time using "the stuff I had" I know how it feels to lose game upon game, but after some purchases (mainly my Wave Serpents) I can safely say that my luck has changed and all those lost games now let me play quite well.

As for tactics, he should keep away until he can safely doom and mass fire on a unit wiping it out completely without fear of retaliation, this should be easy to accomplish since an opponent will be forces to split up his forces to be able to attack/catch all those fast skimmers. If the opponent doesn't split up he should just stay well out of harms way and blast shots from a distance until an opportunity arises that he can exploit. In the late game (last turn basically) he should disembark from the transports on his own objectives and use his skimmers to contest opposing objectives.

A general rule is to keep the mission objectives in mind, I had difficulties doing this for the first few games in 5th edition, but now I find it much easier and it helps a lot when you want to win.

 

I don't use Guardians at all. And you'll find that few do (although Storm Guardians with 3x flamers....). But 3-4 squads of Dire Avengers would be quite devastating (proxy the guardians for now as Inian suggested).
He will need to get/proxy some aspect warriors. I highly suggest proxying before spending the $$ on models. Eldar can be one of the deadliest armies, but they are also a bit tricky to use. I find we are best at hit and run tactics, using our fast tanks/transports to flank-kill a bunch of stuff, then embark and zoom out of retaliation range.
Have him try using the Farseer as Eldrad. He is a potent farseer.
And as always, practice-learn-practice.
There is no real 'always win' army. I have Marines, Sisters, Chaos Marines, Eldar and find the Eldar to be the most rewarding and winniest of them all.

Read strategies online. I know there are several great threads on LO regarding Eldar tactics and play styles (sorry I don't know the links).

-John

 

My brother and I have been playing 40K and Fantasy on and off for over 10 years, and we just recently added 4 brand new gamers to our group.
One of them was having much the same trouble as your friend, but with a different army. We found the best way to help him was make sure that during a game we would talk about tactics he could use, and ones he shouldn't have.
I think playing a few games where the objective is to simply get more practice, as opposed to winning is vital.
When he does something silly, let him know how he could have done it better.
When he writes a list that was lacking something in particular tell him what type of unit would help the list, overall.
Get him to write like 10 different lists (Proxy anything he doesn't have) and get him to play a bunch of different styles of eldar (Mech, MC, foot eldar)

And above all else, if he just can't work with Eldar at the moment, get him to play as a different army, with a heaps different style. He might realise that Eldar just doesn't match his play style, or he might realise that he loves eldar so much that he can't just walk away from them.

This doens't really give you specific alterations for his army or tactics, but let's face it, no list is unbeatable, and no tactic is perfect, and if someone else writes him a list and tells him how to use it, he may not end up anywhere near as good a player as he could be.

 

We found the best way to help him was make sure that during a game we would talk about tactics he could use, and ones he shouldn't have.
I think playing a few games where the objective is to simply get more practice, as opposed to winning is vital.

+1 to that. Oh, and another +1.
My gaming group and I still talk about our games afterwards and discuss what we could've done better, what worked and what didn't. When we are teaching a newcomer, we discuss throughout the game. Help him learn the game and the army, crushing him will never a fun gamer make.

-John

 

Pretty much bang on. Getting "stuck" is never a good thing, but like it was mentioned, the second I got my second and third wave serpents, the wins started flowing. They're the linchpin to our army.

 

Thanks for the tips, I'll pass these on to him. And I think you're all right, a bunch of dire avengers with wave serpents does not sound like fun to fight and I'm sure it would do much better. I always wondered why he bought so many guardians when avengers and other aspect warriors are so much cooler.

 

2 ways to make them Dire Avengers-Either paint them in DA colors, or replace the heads with the crested DA heads (can often be found on eBay or other online stores Eldar Dire Avenger Bits ).

 

my second wave serpent i ordered for my storm guardians to roll in was a turning point. Picking up a box of fire dragons to hop in my falcon was an amazing day. the only other option i can think of (short of more vehicles) would be harlies as the elites choices, since veil of tears keeps them safe pretty much all the way to charge range. fighting MEQ's, use the hawks as AT, against GEQ's/demons, bounce the hawks in and out for the artillery... errr.... grenade packs =)

there is a solid foundation to a list that you posted, it sounds like it may be more strategy/technique.

make sure in the 10man guardian squads they are running with either multiple shot weapons (scatter laser ideal here) or missle launcher (only in blast form) to help overcome the mediocre BS.

 

I think there definitely was a large amount of strategy problems. He was playing with 3 skimmers but never once did he try transporting troops in his transports. He just has them sitting there trying to shoot while his guardians march into rapid fire range. And he never gave any special weapons to the guardians. I really dont think he has a clue what he's doing but I'll try to get him to listen to some of this advice. Besides dire avengers what other aspect warriors would you reccommend? Fire Dragons? Are fire dragons flamers, sorry I've never faced them. He was talking about striking scorpions, are they any good?

 

Firedragons are all equiped with the eldars version of a melta gun the exarch can be equiped with a flamer but it is an option that is rarely used. 5 or 6 in a waveserpent are possibly the best AT unit in the game and by far the best one eldar have. Normally people don't take them in large numbers because the enemy likes to shoot squads full of melta guns once they get out of the transport. They have a reputation as a suicide squad, not the best way to play them but it is how some picture them.

Scorpions can be a good melee unit, they do best against low save horde armies like nids or orcs. This is because they have alot of attacks and str4 but only the exarch can get a powerweapon (well claw/fist). Lacking fleet does hurt but the 3+ save makes them durable. With exarch powers they can infiltrate or outflank. I feel they are the best stand alone melee unit we have but depending on target and psyker support banshees can be better ( I10 and str 3 powerweapons, backed by doom work over elite units nicely).

Also Ulthwe player I do have to stand up for guardians, Storms in a transport are an amazing unit and the guardians are one of the few troop choices we have that can get an effective AT gun ( although with a low bs ) warlocks can also add alot to a unit of guardians.

If your friend is just looking for a more powerful list I would point in the direction of a mech force ( like most of the people in this thread ). If he really wants to get a hybrid or footslogging list they can be built to be effective but will struggle against the most powerful builds of other armies.

 

Almost every time I've tried to sit back and shoot, I lost. But it also doesn't fit my 'get in your face' play style.

Fire Dragons have Fusion Guns (Melta Guns 12" S8, AP1, Melta) and Melta Bombs. Common strategy-5 Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent or Falcon. Speed up to tank (perhaps moving flat out to get that 4+ cover save-even better, Fortune the Tank so it can re-roll the cover save). Disembark Fire Dragons and get within 6" of enemy tank to get the 2d6 +Str8 Armor Penetration. 5 shots=pop goes the tank. Works great vs Land Raiders. They usually draw a lot of fire after they kill the tank, so are generally considered suicide troops. But support them properly and they can be a game changer.

Here's how I often use them: I always put Star Engines on my Fire Dragon transport (they allow an additional 12" move in the shooting phase).
Turn 1-Fortune the tank and move Flat out 24" then Star Engine 12" (36" in total in turn 1!). This positions my transports (I will always do 2-3 together, Dragons, Banshees, Dire Avengers) where ever I want, though I try to pick the weakest flank.
Turn 2-disembark my troops first, move Fire Dragons within 6" of big nasty enemy tank and move my transports to shield my Fire Dragons troops from enemy fire/assault. Assault with Banshees and support with Dire Avengers. Even better to assault whatever was inside the Land Raider, etc!
This can be a hit and run tactic by embarking in turn 3 and getting out of dodge!

For me, the 3 transports with troops and usually a Farseer is near half of my army. Fire on that same flank with my Fire prisms, and I'm essentially bringing my entire army to bear on 1/3-1/2 of his. In addition, I'm controlling the flow of battle and forcing my opponent to react to me.

I also use Scorpions to outflank, often in a Wave Serpent instead of Banshees if playing vs a non MEQ list. Obviously I play a heavy mech list. For 1500pt tourney I usually have 4 Wave Serpents and 2 Fire Prisms. The only footer being my Wraithlord (who is there to guard my objective and generally soak up fire).

-John

 

Thanks for the help everybody, it means a lot. Hopefully this doesn't make him too powerful ha! Rep for everybody!

 

Okay it's been a bit and after having my friend try out many of these tactics he's still getting destroyed every single game. I think clearly now its a matter of terrible tactics so I've come back to see if you guys could give any tips as to how you would play a particular list.

He is now using:

Farseer w Doom and Guide

8 Banshees with exarch warshout mirror sword

2x 5 Dire Avengers with exarch shuriken cannon bladestorm

3 Wave Serpents 2 with brightlance and spirit stones holding the avengers. One with scatter laser holding the farseer and banshees.

2 fire prism

Our group of friends generally only plays annihilation games so take that into consideration. Is this list viable? A GW employee said it would be pretty good but I just dont think my friend know how to use it. He always just sits back and tries to long range kill everything, but doesnt have the firepower to play that way. Any tips on tactics or general knowledge on how this list should be played would be greatly appreciated.

 

Dire Avenger squads are just way to tiny they will barely survive the first time they get attacked, its 7 or nothing. Tell him to buy 2 more War Walkers with scatter lasers on them and toss guide. He should only field one Wave Serpent with bright lances, EML on one could be pretty good set-up. Also Fire Prisms need Spirit Stone and Holo-Field. Also have him pick-up some warlocks and give the banshees counter-attack.

Also try getting him to use this list
Farseer - Doom, Fortune, RoW, Spear: 143
Warlocks(5) - Enhance , Embolden, Destructor(3): 175
Howling Banshees(6) - Exarch, mirrorswords, Counter-Attack, War Shout: 128
Falcons(2) -Scatter Lasers, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones: 330
Dire Avengers(7) - Exarch, Dual, Bladestorm: 116
Dire Averngers(6) - Exarch, Dual, Bladestorm: 104

Basically the Seers hope in one of the Falcons, flat out to a large group of enemey troops with fortune on. Banshees go in the other Falcon but take there time by only going up 12 inch. Dire Avengers find a building and shoot from safe distance hopefully with objective nearby.

 

He needs to, proverbially, shove the wave serpents down his opponents throats. He's got to move, move move, move 12 inches every turn, fire weapons, split the enemy fire.

He has, in reality, exactly four shots S8 or higher. You can't sit back and rely on this to win a fight. Ever. Compare this with Imperial Guard, who can easily muster 20+ S7 or higher shots a turn. He's got to put the pressure on.

He should drop the Bright Lances and swap them for Eldar Missile launchers. Far more versatile than Bright Lances. He could probably safely drop the Scatter Laser to a Shruiken Cannon (woops) with no real loss. He's going to want to be bringing the fight to his enemy, so the range issue is moot. He should pick doom OR guide, without spirit stones to cast twice, there's little point in taking two powers.

As I understand, the way you posted, it comes out to 1072 points, is this correct?

If he dropped his Banshees down to 5, made the weapon swaps I suggested, and modified his Farseer, he could take 3 War Walkers with Shruiken cannons for 1074.

Since I'm not sure what point level he's at, thats the best I can offer. The three war walkers would outflank, and dump 18 S6 shots into the side and rear armour of a tank or infantry. Basically, he's adding much more firepower for not a lot of points.

 

Points im not sure exactly but they are also not an issue as he just says how many points he has to field and we do our best to match it.

I'll suggest the warwalker changes to him but im not sure if he'll want to buy the 2 more walkers, he has 1 I think.

The weapon swaps sound good although I dont know what the missle launchers can do, im sure he does though so ill bring it up.

I think the swift attack strategy is going to be the best thing for him. I kept wondering why he has all these fast skimmers and never does anything fast with them. His troops never see action until their vehicle is popped and then they are too far away to not get shot to death. I feel like he is just too afraid of his vehicles dying to advance on enemy lines and prefers to stick them in cover and try to hurt things from safety. Maybe I should suggest he borrow our friends tau if he cant get over this habit. Thanks for the help!

 

This is virtually identical to my standard tournament list. And I win often with it. My only addition is Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent, all Wave Serpents with Eldar Missile Launchers, and Eldrad as my Farseer.
But cKerensky is right. Move, move, move!

Here's how I'd play that list.
Farseer with Banshees (give their Wave Serpents Star Engines) that's a 36" move. Fortune the WS (or both if using Eldrad). Move them and a DA Serpent up one flank. They will get a 4+ cover save for moving fast and can re-roll that with Fortune. Next turn, depoly Banshees and DA BEFORE moving the Wave Serpents so they can assault. Be sure to Doom the squad the Banshees plan on assaulting! The DA's can provide supporting fire. Position the Wave Serpents to protect/block LOS to the Banshees so they are not left exposed after their assault. Shoot side/rear armor with the WS EML. Should the Banshees wipe out their target and be in the open, get them back into the transport and move around.

The main reason I would move DA with the Banshees is so I'm not putting a single expensive unit in the enemy lines unsupported.

Our biggest strength is our mobility. Control the flow of battle, make your opponent react to YOU instead of you to him. By focusing on a single flank, you are putting 2/3+ of your army vs 1/3 or so of his. Use careful planning when positioning your WS. After deploying my Banshees, I will often put my WS in-between them and the enemy. This can prevent a counter charge against the Banshees or them getting shot up.

Since your playing Annihilation, there's no need to keep the DA for objective grabbing but don't just sacrifice them either.

Also have him keep track of Kill Points for both sides during the game. Knowing where you stand vs your opponent is key. It can let you know when to hit hard, and when to pull back and be safe.

Oh, and btw, the EML have both Krak (S8 AP3) and Plasma (S4 AP4, Blast, Pinning). Better than SM missile launchers.

 

oops, double post.

 

I think its really admirable that you are trying to help your friend but I suggest that you get him online to ask some questions. He is the one who is most familiar with his army and he will hae more specific questions about his army. Now for a bit of tactical advice Ill lend my opinions.

MOVE! The Eldars biggest advantage is being able to move further than any other army. Our tanks can move 36inches in a single turn allowing you to get a key unit to where you need them. Eldar have really good squads when used correctly and when they support each other. Alone each squad is pretty weak and is almost bound to die.
Because the Eldar have specalised squads he need to think about what units he needs to win rather than just taking some random units. Does he need low AP weapons to deal with heavily armoured units, lots of shots for hordes or anti-tank? Every unit should have a purpose.

Guardians are okay for holding objectives but are pretty weak otherwise, they can be given an extra kick by giving them a heavy support weapon and a warlock.
Dire avengers are far better than guardians but lack the extra punch a guardian weapon platform can bring.

His Elite choices are whats oing to swing things his way, the list you worte earlier shows me that he lacks some close combat units. Banshees and Harlequins are my favourties. Harlequins with a Shadowseer can't be shot at from further than 24" as to target them his opponents have to roll 2D6 and multiply it by 2. This allows him to get close to his enemys with out getting shot up too badly.
Banshees will strike before any other opponent as their masks let them strike at initative 10. Soften up a squad with long range fire and finish them off with the banshees.

His Farseer is a major attribute to the army as his phychic powers allow him to support other units making them even more effective and generally should be kept out of combat. (Farseers are able to cast a number of their powers from inside a tank making them more durable as his opponent will have to crack open the tank to get to him.)

I could go on and on about different units and their abilities all day long so tell your friend if he comes online to give me a bell and Ill be more than happy to talk Eldar with him and give him a few basic stratagys for him to use till he learns to coordinate his troops better and then start to use more complex ones. After all a statagy is more effective if your opponent doesnt know its coming.