Erm let me slightly tinker with this.

In the original thread you argued that Russ definately won't be back. I was making a point that often GW alter things, write things off (illuminati anyone?), or simply ignore them. Even if Russ was dead I wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to write him back in.

As to the fluff source, your source stating he was dead was a 2nd ed source. I'm sure I read a 3rd edition source saying he left for the EOT. I remember something about his armour was found outside a Chaos Temple near the rim of the Eye of Terror . As for the Wulfen issue, this was at a later point. I'm not claiming the 13th company were his personal company, the 13th company went into EOT in the immeadiate aftermath of the heresy, chasing the traitor forces. The departure of Russ was a few centuries later, after the destruction of Prospero, a bit in the manner of Corax.

 

This is true. I'm just wondering if we can reconcile the two.

A later departure does kinda make sense. What happened to Corax?

 

I can't find my source for the life of me, but I can find loads of references to it.

For example, this timeline claims to be compiled from lots of official GW material, and has labelled
"197.M31 Leman Russ disappears on the night of the Feast of the Emperors
Ascension"

http://www.goblin-online.net/fortyk/a3timeln.txt

 

I used to be pretty sure he was dead, but then I rememberd how hard core Primarchs are, and if the 13th Company can survive in the Eye, Big Daddy Leman certainly can. Also the legend of Russ's dissapearence is that on the Feast of the Emporer's Ascension, Russ stood up on the table in the Great Hall of the Fang and was about to make one of his great speeches when suddenly he fell silent. He was suddenly struck by a siezure or something and fell down to his knees. His closest warriors (the ones that served as his retinue in battle) crowded around him and he whsipered to them something that nobody else heard. then they all quietly got up and left. Since then Russ and his boys have been missing, and supposedly his last words are what he said just before leaving, not what he said as he was dieing ,as nobody ever saw him die. (because he's alive ) Supposedly the wulfen that came puring out of the Eye are the 13th Great Company who chased the traitors into the Eye after the Heresy.I believe thier return from the Warp is supposed to mean that Russ will return/be found soon, which according to the legends of other Marine Chapters, will signifiy the return of his brother Primarchs and kickoff the big final battle.

the part about Russ's dissapearence is in Index Astartes II

 

Again, remembering an article I read a long time ago, the defeat at Istvaan broke his spirit. The Raven Guard and the Iron Hands were very depleted, and would need a long time to recover their numbers. Corax hung up his weapons and left for the eye in a small one man ship, apparently to get some vengeance/regain some honour.

 

Nice. As in, left his weapons behind?

 

I always thought Corax left because of the mutants he created in his failed cloning experiemtn. It made hie grow deeply depressed and he left for the Eye after muttering one of the most painful cliches in 40k fluff history. But feh! We're straying off topic again! Russ damnit Russ!

 

Do people still think Russ is still out there? I'd say no, because we have his last words recorded, and in them he says he is dying. Addoran, on the other hand, is claiming that he is somewhere in the EoT from some more recent fluff.

My personal questionmark with that is then why would he have sent the 13th Great Company into the Eye to chase out the Traitor Legions? I don't remember reading anything saying that the Wulfen were his personal Great Company.

What do other people think?

In the second edition fluff, there is indeed a quote claimed to be Russ’ last words, though we can’t know for sure if that’s true. In newer fluff, however, it is as Edicius stated. Russ survived the Heresy, but later left his Legion, bringing only his retinue of a few faithful warriors with him. Where they went is not known, but the Space Wolves believe that Russ will return on the day of the final battle regardless of whether he’s dead at the moment or lost somewhere in the Eye of Terror. Seeing as the Space Wolves believe in a curious combination of Imperial religion and Norse mythology, I don’t think it actually matters to them. Norse mythology spoke of Ragnarok, the final battle between good and evil, where all great warriors of the past would live again to fight beside the gods, and I think the same is true for the Wolftime that Russ mentioned in his alleged last words. Every once in a while a senior Rune Priest is also granted a vision by the spirit of Russ, proving to the Space Wolves that he is still out there. They will then launch a Great Hunt and attempt to find him or his last resting place in the Eye of Terror, though none have yet been successful.

As for the 13th Great Company, there are two stories suggesting why they were lost in the Eye of Terror. One states that the Company lead the assault on Prospero, breaking through the lines of the Thousand Sons and following Magnus through the portal he created to escape with his Legion, while the other story claims that Russ sent the 13th Company to kill Abaddon immediately after the Heresy, before he managed to secure a foothold within the Eye. Considering that the 13th Company chose to reappear during the 13th Black Crusade makes me think that the second story might be the most likely, but that’s just my personal opinion. I can’t see Russ sending a whole Company of his through a warpgate to pursue a bunch of cowards and traitors without joining them himself, but it does make sense for him to quietly send the Company off on some covert mission after the Heresy, when Guilliman was working on the Codex Astartes and making a fuss about Russ not wanting to split his Legion into Chapters. Having the 13th Company around might cause even more trouble, appearing to be warp-touched and barely controllable as they were, and thus it seems reasonable to give them something useful to do while keeping them away from Guilliman for a while. I guess Russ didn’t think it would take them this long to track down Abaddon and kill him.

[…]the 13th company went into EOT in the immeadiate aftermath of the heresy, chasing the traitor forces. The departure of Russ was a few centuries later, after the destruction of Prospero, a bit in the manner of Corax.

I am not sure I understand this statement correctly. Would you care to explain? As far as I know, the destruction of Prospero, the Thousand Sons’ homeworld, took place before the Heresy, not after. Perhaps I simply don’t understand it correctly, though.

~Grephaun.

 

The scourging of Prospero was before the Heresy; the Emperor ordered it when the Sons tried to warn him that Horus was plotting against him. The Emperor didn't believe them and sent the Space Wolves trotting in.

I missed that before, sorry.

 

Well one thing is for sure, the 13th company is in no way is personnal company or what so ever, as their wolf lord is Jorin Bloodfang, and were sent after the fleeing legions, and got stranded in as the warp storms closed on them.

As to them being warp touched and crazed, yes, since the warp strives for constant mutation, but they remain one of the most loyal legions the emperor as. Just that they act on their own, just like Space Wolves.

 

Sorry, that statement is a bit ambiguous. The destruction of Prospero was indeed just before the heresy/at the same time. I'm not actually sure why I wrote it like that now. I remember I was trying to make some point about Russ not leading the 13th Company, and there attack being pretty independant.

Basically the point I was trying to make was the same though, that there is a gap of a few years between the disappearance of the 13th company and the disappearance of Russ.

On Magnus, I've never really understood the identifying with Magnus, that whole thing seems a bit stupid to me.

Emperor: What ever you do, don't have anything to do with the Warp, thats the root to Chaos worship and heresy.

Magnus: I promise I'll stop.

(carries on messing with warp powers even though the Emperor told him not to)

Magnus: Oh no, I've discovered that there is a giant heresy in the Imperium, and the other primarchs have started worshipping chaos. Lets see, whats the worst possible way to inform the Emperor that people are worshipping chaos? I know, I'll use that new chaos power I gathered from that secret chaos research I've been doing even though I was told to stop. That'll be a good way to inform the Emperor that people are worshipping chaos under his nose.

(world comes under attack by Space Wolves etc)

Magnus: Argh, I'm not a chaos worshipper, but lets open a chaotic warp portal quickly and escape to Horus, even though if I was truly a misunderstood Loyalist I would want nothing to do with him.


Yes, hes such a tragic misunderstood figure. Getting this thread back on topic, I'm noticing a lot of people aren't actually saying yay or nay to whether Russ will be back.

 

I say yes he will return, along with his brother Primarchs (the ones that are alive at least). Since GW has been pretty fuzzy in regaurds to the fates of most of the Primarchs, there's plenty of story room for Russ to make a return to fight in the final battle against chaos (of course that battle would be sad as it would mean an end to the W40k time line. That is, all races and beings would probably be involved to tie up the story line, but anyway...)

 

i think he is alive but he isnt coming back,
if he turned up everyone would want a model, that would make the 40k universe explode with cheese

 

Getting this thread back on topic, I'm noticing a lot of people aren't actually saying yay or nay to whether Russ will be back.

I believe that Russ will return on the day of the final battle. In theory at least, since we all know that there will be no final battle of the 40k universe if Games Workshop can do something about it. But I think that Russ, being the Viking that he is, will stay true to his promise and return to fight beside his god and brother Primarchs. Of course, as everyone who is familiar with Norse mythology will know, this will have no effect and the world will come to an end anyway, but at least it won’t go quietly.

~Grephaun.

 

Addoran.. There are two sides to every story. That's one, Magnus himself would tell you a very different one, I'm sure.

Note: He opened a chaos portal after his mind snapped, and after Russ had broken his back. Both pretty extreme circumstances. It wasn't quite 'oh.. I'm going to decide to open a chaos portal now.'

I'd suggest reading the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons chapter approved articles, what's particularly interesting is how little the space wolf one portrays him as a traitor. While it does point out that there are questions about the sources used to reconstruct the events of that battle, it seems to me Magnus only snaps once his legion is being slaughtered and his cities burned to the ground around him.

As for Russ.. I'm confident GW isn't thinking about it whatsoever right now, and probably never will. Personally, I like the idea that he will come back, perhaps in a reincarnated form, or as a clone, but he certainly seems dead to me.

 

Russ will return. Dorn will emerge form the Imperial Palace, Ferrus will arise from his sarcophacus on Mars, Guillemans wounds will heal and the statis field burst as the Emperors Primarchs unite in the final battle

 

I thought Ferrus Manus went missing at Istvaan? And you forgot the Lion..

 

Isn't Lion El'Jonson buried/residing deep within the Rock but only the most esteemed members of the Deathwing know about it? Biding his time until the time is right to lead his Dark Angels against the enemies of mankind and his beloved Emperor?

Besides, him and Russ don't get on do they? The Lion sparked him out.

 

Sorry Dorn aint coming back (well unless he is infected with some kind of Zombie plague as what's left is preserved bones). Gulliman is in a stasis field so he aint coming back (maybe has somthing to do with the word stasis i don't know). Jaghati Khan chased a bunch of Dark Eldar all the way back to Commaragh so if he is still alive then it raises the question as to what he has been doing. Corax just vanished as did Lemun Russ (although the fact that a chaos cult had his armour leads me to the conclusion that he went the way of the Dodo) Lion El Johnson is either Cypher or he is dead too ( he isn't in the rock Luthor is and is being kept alive in stasis but as for el'johnson he isn't there this is mentioned in Angel of Darkness). Ferrus disspaered at the battle for Istvann V probably dead but they never recovered his body. Sanguinius is dead no question. And Vulkan they never really went into although i remember being told that he was the only primarch to die of old age and lived long after his brothers had vanished/died.

 

William Kings Space Wolf serious (if you read between the lines) implies that Ragnar is the re-incarnation of Russ

used the Spear of Garm to smite Magnus for example

perhaps all the dead primarch will be re-encarnated for the end times

 

oh and the great Khan after pursuing his the Dark Eldar through the Webway was contacted by a Harlequin Solitare and now helps guard the Black Libary

 

Addoran.. There are two sides to every story. That's one, Magnus himself would tell you a very different one, I'm sure..

Yup, very true. In fact, Magnus was severly traumatized by the ruling of the emperor to stop sorcerous magics altogether. He came just in time to prevent his legion from getting exterminated and developed the librarius for all legions. Psykers proved deadly on the battlefield, more often than 'normal' marines. He couldnt get past the emperor not seeing this especially because the emperor was the greatest psyker ever. Magnus peered into the warp saw the visions as you all know but what doesnt seem to be common knowledge is the fact that Magnus did not see his own role in the heresy (Tzeentch). He was on prospero which is pretty far from Terra (i think) he wasnt sure if he could go by ship. Next and most important he thought by sending the message in its sorcerous form he could convince the emperor how wrong he was on the usefulness of magics (HAHAHA WRONG).

The emperor's point of view: Magnus his beloved son had been tainted by chaos. Everbody thinks it was all serene visions Magnus sent him. Omg this ninny attacked the palace itself, the emperor has psychic wards and hexes protecting the palace and Magnus' spell destroyed them violently and grasped the emperor's mind engulfing him in agony. Recipe for destruction. The whole the thing was one crafty plot by tzeentch in my opinion.

Back on track for a second here, Russ....i'd like to think he's alive. A whole company of space wolves have survived for ten millennia, i dont see why their father, approximately a thousand times as powerful, cant do so. With all the over powered freaks in the EoT, we need the second most powerful CC specialist for the upcoming storm (never gonna happen, yea i know).

 

William Kings Space Wolf serious (if you read between the lines) implies that Ragnar is the re-incarnation of Russ

used the Spear of Garm to smite Magnus for example

perhaps all the dead primarch will be re-encarnated for the end times

I haven't read Deus Encarmine yet, but I'm pretty sure it covers that idea with the Blood Angels. There's a picture of a guy with angel wings on the cover, so I'm just pulling at straws here.

 

i think he is alive but he isnt coming back,
if he turned up everyone would want a model, that would make the 40k universe explode with cheese

it is highly unlikely GW will bring back the primarchs either Imperium or chaos, simply because they would be too powerful even when severly underpowered for playability. Sanguinius was able to kill a bloodthirster in one on one combat after fighting at the emperors palace for however long it was. and he wasnt the strongest primarch.

They would be unplayable imagine Russ walking onto a battlefield
"Ah look strange things called Tau."
Hammerhead floats by
"OOOOH whats that long gun on it back."
BANG
"Oh no im dead, damn those instant kill rules."

you couldnt have that in all fairness a primarch getting shot and killed by a railgun


This is only what i recall from a conversation i had a good while ago but some of teh guys at GW HQ did make up stats for a primarch and put them into a game but with certain special conditions attached to them.

 

there was a campain in the U.S were Russ had is stats and all part of a mission, and if I am right it lookied like WS7, S5, T5 and some crazy 3 wound blackmane fenris wolves. I would post all of it, but the copyrights might apply, can someone get my a ruling on this?

he also had wicked items