I Concur

Seriously, I had to review both the old codex and the first half of this one to realize this, but these Sisters aren't cutting it. There is a serious shift in tone from the first half of my review to the second where I reminisce about the good old days with the old codex and how much better it is than this. Albeit this is only the first half, I don't see a way of redeeming this travesty.

 

This is my review. TL;DR? Old Sisters Rule, New Sisters Drool

The Codex starts with an explanation of how the Sisterhood came about. This is reasonable, for it is how most things start; at the beginning. Here, the tale starts with a very crazy man that, in some sort of coup, takes over both the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum (a feat that has been banned since, through dissolving the right for the Ecclesiarchy to "ban together an army of men"). Now, this man finds a very devout sisterhood of slightly militant women on some planet and decides to use them as his elite bodyguard (because he can't trust anyone else, apparently). From this, he builds their order on two core worlds, expanding their power and influence as a strong arm of the Ecclesiarchy. Then, when people have had enough of his ranting sermons, a man rises in opposition and does battle for the true word of the Emperor. At some point, and it's not described how, this man, who has been the enemy of the now insane commander of the Sisters, gains an audience with the leader of the Sisters and her elite guard. Then, somehow, this man gains admittance to the Golden Throne and brings the Sisters with him. Nothing is told about what transpired inside that room, but when the Sisters exit they march to the still insane man who has been leading and deceiving them, and executes him. Then the previously mentioned order of no "Army of men" is established, but this does not include women, and so they are maintained as a serious fighting force for the Ecclesiarchy. Then the guy who lead the rebellion becomes the new Ecclesiarch and creates the Orders by dissecting the now bulging ranks of the two main Sisters planet training... things. Each Order is founded by one of the 6 sisters that entered the Golden Throne room.

What is wrong with this picture?

Besides the obvious unexplained availability for peace between warring leaders (because everyone knows that wars of faith are so reasonable), the main problem is Sexism. I know, you can laugh, I'll wait.

Done? Good. Sexism is still alive and well even this far into the future. Instead of saying "No army of people" the High Lords of Terra, in their infinite wisdom, only think that an army of men would really be a threat to the Administratum. In this, the women, of course, would be docile and subservient enough to control them however the Ecclesiarch pleases and wouldn't be strong enough to overthrow any establishment controlled by men. Even though the fighting force of the recently defeated power crazed dictator was headed by the elite sisterhood. Even though the only way the crazed dictator was defeated was when the Sisters took it upon themselves to end his life.

This is par for the course, of course, because it's the unwritten rule of GW to create an inherently phallic and patriarchal society since its inception. Not only are all the influential leaders penis wielding misogynists, the only reason that women are included, and in fact, wield any power in the Imperium, is at the approval of their male superiors.

Another reason to go xenos, for any women players out there. Seriously, don't expect the sisters to hold up your "Hail to the V" signs.

All is as it should be so far.
Now, the next page (and yes folks, I do mean page) is dedicated to the innumerable battles of the Sisters of Battle. And by innumerable, I mean 6, and by 6 I really only mean 4 whose description, as devoid of detail as they are, are more than an inch long (where the page is separated into three columns, two of which are text and the third is a pretty picture with a quote). Some of these wars warrant real bloody tales that should span pages, like their fraternal partners, but alas, a short synopsis is all they can afford for the "bolter b----es" (those dirty bleeding hussies of the Emperor). One of the descriptions was, and I’m not trying to exaggerate, one sentence long. Why even bother mentioning that? Because it involves the destruction of an entire world of Sisters, so why isn’t it important…

But we knew this going in. We knew the fluff would be terribad, and that none of the virtuousness of the Sisters would really make it to the bastard form of a codex. So far, expectations are still being met, as low as they were, sadly.
But now we come to the fun part. Someone finally was given a chance to write a codex that has balanced rules and can be fielded in battle without their opponent groaning in annoyance, terror, or hate (usually all three when the last two Fraternal codices are in play).

Faith Points are based on a die roll each turn. Only a D6, but then again, the Emperor only has so much love and he can be a fickle mistress, err, mister, sometimes. The FP's are spent on Acts of Faith that each unit in the army has. Every time a unit wishes to use an AoF, they subtract a FP from their pool, roll a die, tack on modifiers based on units in the squad or casualties on the unit, and pray that the total is 5+. They must use it at the beginning of the turn in which it effects. This also implies (if I read it correctly) that they must be used on the turn of the person who is fielding the Sisters. Since the AoF's are mostly offensive in some way or another, it's not that big of a deal, but when I first read it and remembered the all important defensive AoF's we use to have, I panicked. If an independent character has an AoF as well as the unit it is attached to, 1 FP is used for each AoF. Then there's the Shield of Faith. It's not listed under the AoF system, but is it's own special rule (as I read it) and what it does is confer a 6+ invulnerable save. Sometimes, faith in the Emperor can be a better shield than any armor.

The codex continues with a brief description of common wargear and special rules of each of the units available in a Sisters army. The idea here is each unit has a special AoF, instead of the old idea that there were certain AoF's that could be spread around the entire army. This allows for a certain amount of specialization for each of the units, but also creates an even longer list of rules to memorize. But let's not have this discourage us:

The Passion: +1 Init and Preferred Enemy (for unit and Canoness)
Endless Crusade: Gains Relentless and Move Through Cover
Spirit of the Martyr: Single attack for models killed in the assault phase before they were allowed to attack.
Light of the Emperor: Regroup even if normally restricted or reroll failed To Hit rolls of 1 (can use this in Movement, Shooting, and Assualt phases)
Hand of the Emperor: +1 Str and Fearless
Holy Fusillade: Weapons are twin-linked (shooting)
The Emperor's Deliverance: re-roll failed To Wound rolls (shooting)
Divine Guidance: Unit's weapons gain Rending (shooting)

And those are just the AoF. Honestly, I'm really excited about running this army. I think they will work well... in small games. That's the one problem with this army, the Emperor's love only goes to a maximum of 6 and I'll be damned if in a large battle you only have 6 units on the field. This means you need to spend your points wisely... But, the Codex helps you out there as well. If you are afraid you roll poorly on the worst of occasions (we all know we do) then one model in your army is a must: Uriah Jacobus. With his special rule Protector of the Faith, we can re-roll the dice to determine how many faith points you have each turn (it says nothing about having to take the second result, but people may assume it's a given, let's not let them until later).

This brings us back to the Sexism argument. One of the most influential units on the field is a man, in an army called Sisters of Battle. Sounds about right.

But, needless to say, the "nuns with guns" really shine when it counts with the different special rules of the individual units. My favorite is the Seraphim. You want double-pistol wielding sexy girls? DONE. Want a re-roll on that all important AoF? WE GOT THAT TOO.
Dominion squads have the Scout special rule? And use meltas and flamers? Sign me up, ma'am.
Penitent Engines: Ignoring Crew anything results, gets another attack for any unsaved wounds (though these extra attacks cannot create extra attacks themselves), and has 2 flamers? Glory be to the Emprah!
Death Cult Assassin - Sexy girl with 2 power weapons, I 6, 5+ Invulnerable, 5+ armor, and a melee stat line that rivals their Fraternal contemporaries. Awesome. The Crusader is cool enough, but I wouldn't even bother with arco-flagellants... They might be awesome in close combat, but they have no survivability (besides Feel No Pai- okay, maybe I see the point).
Priests and Confessors have the Righteous Rage, sorta like a Litanies of Hate for Sisters... yet again because of men.
The vehicles are pretty awesome too, bringing back the ol' faithfuls like the Exorcists, Rhinos, and Immolators. All with Shield of Faith (invulnerable saves on Imperial vehicles? more likely than you think). Though I do hope they bring back the full out move and then flame on the Immolator... it wasn't mentioned... I will be very sad if this remains true.
Saint Celestine remains her usual self: pure amazing. Her coming back on the field is sexy, her armor is sexy, her weapon is sexy... She's bringing sexy back like Slaneesh was going out of style.

But conspicuously missing from this part of the 2 part entry, would be the point costs and wargear alternatives (and hopefully a bit more of the rules *crosses fingers for those immolators*). How many sisters can I field at a time? How much does a Rhino cost? What's a fast attack and what's an Elite? This gives you a month to dust those girls off, paint a bit more, and start organizing a plan of attack to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.

But how does this compare with the old rules? Let’s take a look:

Psychic Powers and the ability to use them? Absent… but since this codex focuses on the Sisters, maybe that’s okay. The psychic powers were mostly for Inquisitors, not Canonesses. Inquisitors, then, are missing… as well as their henchmen… Maybe they moved to another codex…
The old Faith Point system and Acts of Faith was ill contrived at best. The number of faith points was determined by how large your army wa- okay, wait, that’s cool. The more of the Emprah’s faithful that gathered, the more use of miracles we could have… Well damn. Martyrdom was also pretty cool. Units die, they give points to the army, for glory to the Emprah… Huh. Okay, but what about implementation? The way it works is you roll 2d6 and compare to the number of units in the squad. Some wanted over, and some wanted under… For large units with under, it was pretty simple, don’t roll box cars = get AoF. You could use them on either player’s turn (various phases) unless it specifically says only on the Sister’s turn or phase. What were these AoF’s?

Hand of the Emprah: +2 Str, Init = 1… Sorta like power fist/relic blade… Damn, that sounds pimp especially if the unit was going last anyways.
Divine Guidance: Roll to wound of 6 counts as AP1 (shooting), roll to wound of 6 counts as power weapon (assault). Jeebus, that sounds useful if you roll well… man… Okay, let’s have faith…

And Over?
The Passion: +2 Init (except on always hit last, Init 1 weapons, and can’t be used with Hand of the Emprah). … ****, that was cool too. Suddenly, bolter b----es go first in combat. Huh…
Light of the Emprah: Fearless until beginning of next movement phase, or if falling back, instantly regroups and also has fearless for that turn. Spend a faith point and get an even more awesome version of ATSKNF? ****, where did that go?
Spirit of the Martyr: Gain an invulnerable save equal to your armor save until end of phase. Wait, WHAT?! ARE YOU ****ING KIDD- Ok, sure… fine.

What about the other rules, certainly there will be some benefits here, right? Bunch of cool specialist rules for war scenarios… terminologies, Force Org., Holy Rage – must move full movement toward enemy +d6” and must assault if they can. That’s cool, kinda fluffy, kinda incentive, I get it, it’s neat. Allying with other armies. Oh, right, because they didn’t expect you to buy hundreds of dollars worth of miniatures and only get 1HQ and 2 troops and expect you to just roll with that. It gives you rules to use while you are in the transition phase. Well let’s see, I play SM, so if I wanted to phase over I could just Use siste- No, no wait, it says **** you to that idea. Can’t use sisters and marines in the same army, because the Marines genitalia might activate and murder their comrades? The Sisters will be so overcome by their machisimo that they will say “**** it” to the Emprah and try to bone the holy into themselves? Sure, let’s go with that. Hopefully in the next section we won’t see this same rule… Hopefully. Fluff wise, I kinda understand, since they were an Inquisition force, they used Inquisition units. If the Sisters could make it, they’d use them. No need to bother the men with such little things as protecting the Emprah’s Imperium… Nope, no need at all to have both forces. (Oh, wait, in the new fluff the Salamanders and Sisters are fighting side by side? Fighting back to back, burning the enemies of the Emprah together? Must be their GIANT BLACK COCKS that lured them over. Get your fluff straight, GW.)

Alright, what about the Units?

Inquisitors? Gone
Canonesses? Still around, but missing their honour guard; the Palatines (those sexy hoes had to go, apparently)
Priests? Still around.
Arco-Flagellants? Around, but were a separate unit description, now grouped with what seem to be other units in this book… Weird.
Celestians? Still good, but without the Holy Hatred – A special rule that allowed them to hit ANYTHING (unless Independent Character or Monstrous Creature) with a WS value at a 3+, regardless. Well ****, okay, that’s gone so far.
Repentia? Present, and less accounted for. The ‘Only in Death Does Duty End’ is smexy, where did that go? It is affected by Holy Rage, if the Mistress is still around, they roll 2 dice and if EITHER of them is 1 or 2, they get Holy Rage. Double the chances to get those girls in the fray. ****ing. Sweet. And Righteous Zeal? Repentia don’t FAIL Morale checks, no, they ADVANCE towards enemies as quickly as possible, always, all the time.
Assassins? Gone, (last seen with Inquisitors at an awesome party)
Death Cult Assassins? Here, and with the Arco-Flagellants (they didn’t get an invite to the party)
I’m going to ignore the fact that Land Raiders are conspicuously missing from the new codex and hope they bring them back in the next… or something… please.
Sisters? Well, we’d hope they’d still be around.
Seraphims? Here, mostly unharmed… actually, they got a buff I’d say. But they are lacking the cool Angelic Visage (increase Leadership of nearby units).
Dominions? Around, they use to have nothing special, now they are scouts. Cool.
Retributors? Same.
Immolators? Use to have two h-flamers, if you or someone you know has seen their other h-flamer, please call your nearest GW representative and slap his balls… because you can.
Exorcist? Since they haven’t released the rules for its cannon, we can hope it remains a strength 8 ap 1 heavy d6 48”.
Penitent Engines? Mostly unchanged, except the Battle Frenzy and d6 attacks… unless I forgot it was a d6 in the new one.
Orbital Strikes? Missing (They were using them for the awesome Laser show at the party.)

All in all… I’m a little ****ing pissed that my sisters were messed with at all. After rereading the codex, I realize that they had some serious power behind them, even if poorly worded. They had some awesome special rules and sexy AoF’s that could apply to many different units. Maybe more than one of the units wanted to have initiative bonuses? Well, GW says **** you to that. Maybe I shouldn’t have complained so much since what they seem to have done to the Sisters fluff wise, has transferred to the crunch. Getting ****ed. What I wanted to see was a reshaping of points, and an update to the AoF’s, not a complete overhall leaving them in the lurch from the last edition. I use to be a heavy proponent of a Sister’s change, but now? I don’t know anymore… this just seems… blasphemo- OH MY GOD, THAT’S IT. GW HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY CHAOS! Don’t you see?! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! The Blood Angels are BARELY holding on to their sanity… Khornate Knights? Really?... It’s all so obvious now… Clarity has been achieved brothers! To arms! To arms! Sound the alarms! Fiends are heading towards the Golden Throne! We need all the faithful now (even the new Sisters)!

SISTERS! FIGHT BY MY SIDE!

 

Here, the tale starts with a very crazy man that, in some sort of coup, takes over both the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum (a feat that has been banned since, through dissolving the right for the Ecclesiarchy to "ban together an army of men"). Now, this man finds a very devout sisterhood of slightly militant women on some planet and decides to use them as his elite bodyguard (because he can't trust anyone else, apparently).

You've gotten your history all mixed up.

The sisters of battle originated as a minor all-female emperor cult of around 500 members which Vandire 'recruited' and trained as his personal bodyguard/harem - this took place in M36, several thousand years after the initial confrontations that would lead to the age of apostasy and the war within the Ecclesiarchy.
Vandire's army was called the Frateris Templars, and was comparable to the imperial guard. The sisters only ever fought in direct defense of Vandire and his final stand in the Ecclesiarcal Palace on Terra.

The sisters of battle being permitted to exploit a technicality in the "no men under arms" rule (formed after Vandire's death to stop anyone doing the same) was a concession by the victorious Thor who understood that the Ecclesiarchy would need some kind of military force to protect it's holdings, and the sisters had something of a de-facto rubber stamping from the emperor and custodes after their part in ending the war.
(the original founding sisters of the new orders were the ones taken before the emperor by the custodes at the height of the battle on terra)

 

Sadly "I don't like the new rules so I'll use the old" doesn't cut it. You might find people willing to play you, but what's to stop anyone else doing the same? There was plenty of bitching when the new SM codex came out and the chapter bits vanished, but you just have to deal with it. Eventually you'll get a new book, and if you're REALLY unlucky it'll be written by Mat Ward.

 

We could always use the arguement that white dwarf contains codex sisters of battle while we use codex witch hunters? sounds like 2 different armies to me

 

All i am hearing here is the following

QQ my Army isnt epic broken anymore and iv been dropped down to a level playing field and rather then put up with it untill my shiney new codex of kill comes out (Like BA did) im going to sit here and cry then try and use the old rules.


Guys it mya suck ass and i agree with you but its a case of get on or get out, when you get your new dex you will all be happy im sure, things get worse befor they get better!

 

I like how level-playing field is described as taking whatever space marines can do, and making sure that the Sisters are underneath that. What real advantages do the Sisters have? The AoF's are laughable compared to what they use to be and leave the Sisters in the lurch when compared to their Fraternal counterparts. But what we'll probably see are unit sizes of twenty and they'll be cheap, so a bunch of Sisters at S3 T3 W4 can almost compete with the 10 man S4 T4 W4 in CC. At range? They will have twice as many shots for less. But they had that in the old codex as well. What we're getting at here is they have reduced what use to make Sisters an almost viable choice into a joke for an army. They are they bastard child of manila-ness between SM's and Guard.

Can the army possibly do well? Maybe. MAYBE. But not as well as it could have been if they kept to the spirit of the old codex. Because those weren't game breaking or ultimate cheese. You might say to yourself, "Well, that army seems to be a good ranged combat army." But where is the long range? Sisters specialize at close range firepower because that's when Meltas and Flamers become important. But then you're close enough to assault them, where you'd hope the 3+ armor would save them, and it probably will.

The Soul of the Sisters has been stripped. No longer does gathering a larger force of the Emprah's faithful gain admittance to more of his love. It's the same whether it's large scale or small scale... So, If people want to run these girls, I'd say take them as a secondary army. Don't put more than 6 or so units on the field and make sure you have another with 2 troops and 1 hq. Then, their AoF's can still be as potent as they were (even though their power has gone) but you still have another standard army to fall back on.

I'm thinking Salamanders... Because, well, they're Salamanders and they GET the Sisters obsession with fire.

That seems level.

 

Sister's of battle were never "epic broken", faith was always a key part of sisters. lots of people (myself included) started sisters of battle because instead of being a typical power armored army they were weak individually but could pull off amazing things through acts of faith, rending a carnifex to death in combat with a bunch of girls never gets old lol. But they've taken faith and turned it into tiny abilities that only work half the time and don't seem to have added anything to make up for it.

Maybe in the 2nd half we'll find out sisters are only 5 points each and can all have combi-meltas for 3 points but they won't be sisters of battle, they'll be codexower armored imperial guard. Yes blood angels had to deal with a white dwarf codex too but they didn't turn a key element of their army into a joke and speaking as a blood angels player a new codex doesn't mean your gonna be happy (especially if it's written by Matt Ward).

Sisters of battle aren't played because their a strong army, they're played because they're a challenge and they offer something unique. Faith was the defining point of the army like death company for BA or we'll be back for necrons. By reducing it to a few unreliable tricks they've destroyed what sister's of battle were all about. They may have gained a points update but they've lost their soul

 

[MENTION=30089]A.T.[/MENTION]

So you're saying that his personal bodyguard, that should be the best of the best in any army, was a militaristic force of sisters and instead of dissolving the ability to have any army, they decided that only an army of men was a real threat?

So... I don't think my history is mixed up, albeit worded not as properly as it could have been.

The Sisters were approached by the Custodes for admittance into the Golden Throne, I'll concede that notion. Though they were enemies, they were of the Emperor, and they probably remained level-headed enough to understand this.

I'm pretty sure we're saying similar things here, though I'll stick with the sexist argument, because it is.

 

[MENTION=30089]So you're saying that his personal bodyguard, that should be the best of the best in any army, was a militaristic force of sisters and instead of dissolving the ability to have any army, they decided that only an army of men was a real threat?

Vandire commanded an army of countless billions over thousands of systems, men and women, complete with warships, artillery, and heavy armour, which had been built up under the command of the ecclesiarchy over millennia.

The sisters (brides of the emperor at that time) were nothing more than a combat trained harem, fanatics who he believed could not be turned against him, similar in some ways to Gaddafi's 'Amazonian guard'.

The disbanding of the ecclesiarchal forces did include women as well as men - the entire military and naval force was disbanded regardless of gender. The continued existence of the sisters was a political decision.

 

Well the thing is, Space Marines ARE better than sisters, they are geneticly engineered bio enhanced super men who directly interface with thier power armour on a nervous level and have been training for every moment of their wakeing day sinced the age of 12/13.

Sisters are religious fanatics who spend a lot of time training martial practices but are still just human with armour that responds slower than a marines.

So, T3 to 4, S 3 to 4 and WS 4 All seem right to me, Marines are Stronger,Tougher, more skilled and Quicker!

 

I'm not arguing stat lines, in fact, I agree with what they are. I'm saying the AoF's make them a less viable choice, and they should put them on par with others, than, say, Marines.

 

The Ecclisiarchy were told they could not have a force of men at arms, all they did was take a twist on words and insted had women, it really is that simple lol.

 

In practical terms they arn't allowed to have women under arms either - if the ecclesiarchy tried to recruit and train all-female guard regiments the high lords would come down on them hard. The sororitas get special exemption by way of the Sebastian Thor (the Ecclesiarch who put the decree passive into effect), the custodes, and the emperor himself.

Strictly speaking the Abbess Sanctorum holds the same rank as the Ministorum's Ecclesiarch (as one of the high council) making the sororitas more directly under the control of the high lords than the ecclesiarchy.

 

How is this relevant to the crapshoot (official title btw)? That bit of fluff hasn't changed.

Well the thing is, Space Marines ARE better than sisters, they are geneticly engineered bio enhanced super men who directly interface with thier power armour on a nervous level and have been training for every moment of their wakeing day sinced the age of 12/13.

Sisters are religious fanatics who spend a lot of time training martial practices but are still just human with armour that responds slower than a marines.

So, T3 to 4, S 3 to 4 and WS 4 All seem right to me, Marines are Stronger,Tougher, more skilled and Quicker!

That's not what people are complaining about. In fact, I think every single sister of battle player will agree that it's one of the things the like about them. They're just humans in power armor with lots of training. The thing that separated them from just being IG with a 3+ save was their Acts of Faith. Now that they've had that stripped from them, they are just IG with a 3+/6++ sans mechvets, undercosted skimmers, orders, artillery, ect. It's ok though. We can reroll 1s 50% of the time.

 

Back on topic a little - don't the battle sister squads seem somewhat ... redundant now. Other than being compulsory scoring units they aren't good at anything - and they would seem to suck up faith for little benefit. If Light of the Emperor was a broad, blanket benefit rerolling all 1s for the turn (except ld tests) they would make sense as a bland but efficient/reliable unit, but that's not the case.

(and a regrouping faith power should have IMO be available to all sisters, they are looking very wobbly on the moral front in the first half of the dex)

 

Man I'm glad my thread has been completely derailed.

 

Over a discussion about fluff that hasn't changed, I know. Upated (downgraded) codexes bring in a lot of people who jump on and try to fit in.

As bad as our WD codex is, I'm not going to officially stop playing until I play a few games with it, so that it's a proven crapshoot not just complaining. That will be hard though because most of my gaming group have all left 40k for Fantasy/WMH.

 

can we ignore the fluff and stay on topic? make a new thread if you want to talk about fluff. as someone who does not have access to a WD yet this is the only place i can get my fix until GW updates their WD site and I can order one. (there is no hobby store that sells them where I am) So id rather read about the WD "crapshoot" as some call it, than fluff that hasnt changed since sisters came out.

 

I agree... But people are adamant to not support a sexist game I guess...

So yeah, no, the new rules are okay... Don't-Know-If-Want-ish-ness. I'm gonna play it a few times before I give a final word... But yeah, the AoF's are where the damage has been done. Instead of having 5 pretty good ones, you now have one for each unit that are completely unique. Sometimes they can stack I guess when Indep. Char. are in units.

I've heard that more is coming... and of course we should wait a year or so or more and more and more and THEN we'll get a legitimate Codex. But yeah, the second half is important.

 

Looks like I'm late to the scrum... Cannibal, engage!

Listen guys, I'm a WH (or should that be SoB now...) player. I am suffering alongside you. But the difference here is that instead of whining, trying to find ways around these new rules (that we haven't even got all the facts about yet! Are we that impatient? Really?), I'm going to wait until I get all the rules before I denounce my sisters. Sisters have been pretty lucky of late, and even as the second oldest 40k army we could still give a decent beating to most newer armies (I was in the last votewar with WH, came 2nd and only lost by 2%. It was down to the wire.). And now we aren't as good as good as we were (comparing these new rules for faith on top of the old points cost, to be confirmed), well you want to know what I think? Get over it, play with the army you enjoy playing with regardless, do you feel that you have to win so badly that you'll spend your time whining over something that's out of your control on the net? Geez... Stupid is as stupid does! If you agree with your opponent to use the WH dex over the WD sister one. Then go for it, but does the chance that you might not be allowed to do that warrant a thread? Herp derp, no! As has already been said, if you don't like the new 'dex, can you go back to the one that you liked? Umm... no? You can't! GW makes the models, they make the rules. Sadly, we can't just pick and choose to be better, as good as we like. How would the game look then? Pretty damn stupid...

And as for arguing over fluff... read the dex and the WD. It's right there, for your viewing pleasure. Use it and stop arguing over it.

All of this is happening before you even get all the facts, and even if you don't like those facts, they're out of your control. So, a little patience, less whining, and a little self control'd be great people!

Thank you, kindly.
Messir Cannibal

 

The second half will have wargear and points costs. It won't be enough to fix the codex. Why? 1d6 faith per turn. We could have a thousand units and only 6 faith to spend on them. Not that it matters because they're all worthless.

 

They aren't really worthless, though. It will come down to points cost and unit size. They will be cheaper (and just as effective) bolter lines (with flamers and meltas to spare).

 

D6 per turn is an average of 21 per game. How many faith points did you previously start with to make this a drop?

 

<.< >.>

Err...

Maybe a little more than one per squad...

But it's not just the number of points, it's the availability of the powers themselves...

Also, a little more points and you got 3d6 on each roll and you get to choose the dice you want to use.

SO yeah... Well damn, that's a wargear rule...

 

boycot's only work if everyone participates... but they do work.

In short our problem here is the following arguments that oddly enough have come about in this thread.

"everyone has had weak rules at some point, just put up with it till you get something good"
"You were broken and overpowered anyway, you deserved the nerf"
"pff, like anyone cares, that army is so lame anyway"

Put simply I am tired of this like it or leave it attitude of the gaming community, you're letting games workshop get away with acting devil-may-care and trust me they will when really if you don't like something you need to stand up and let everybody in their company know about it! If you think the witchhunters codex is far more representative of what the sisters of battle should be (and I most certainly do) then ignore all the stupid statements I presented above and go do something about it!

As for actually playing with your army, anyone who is childish enough to not allow you to use older rules should be smacked upside the head with your case full of metal sisters of battle tbh. This is a game we play for fun afterall and we are'nt trying to pull the wool over their eyes we just want to play an army that has'nt been butchered.

 

boycot's only work if everyone participates... but they do work.

There is nothing to boycot - there are no new models not to buy, no new codex not to buy, GW has nothing to lose because it's put nothing on the line.

I do have to wonder if this is the last we will see of the sisters. Short of a disturbingly good wargear selection I don't think the codex is going to encourage anyone to play them - not at £70+ per squad for 2nd edition direct only pewter.

D6 per turn is an average of 21 per game. How many faith points did you previously start with to make this a drop?

At 2k you'd probably start with 10-12. But it's a marines vs conscripts - you start with more, you get less from it. Around the 1500-2000pt level you'd expect to start seeing more successful faith powers per game under the old system than the new one due to an apparent lack of scaling.

 

Though the first half of the WD codex was pretty underwhelming, I can't say it was omgimgonnaquit bad. Yeah, the faith is nerfed to hell, but it is kinda interesting to have unit specific faith powers. D6 per turn with no pooling is pretty lame, but I suppose miracles aren't supposed to happen to everyone in the army simulateously with the consistency that it can be relied on. That's like magic my friends, and takes the point away from miracles. Yes it sucks, but I think GW was trying to incorporate that idea when making the rules. Another thing to note is that while the faith special rules can't be helped, it doesn't mean that the army itself will be terrible until we know what is in the second half. We have no idea what the points costs are yet, and more importantly we don't know what the wargear options will be. Perhaps we can hope for cool relics to use to boost the army and give it more flavor? Perhaps wargear will add to the faith total per turn? It did say for instance in the Seraphim's section that their superiors have access to precious relics and wargear... In conclusion I am a little disappointed, but hopeful for the next issue of WD. If they make it decent and up to date with 5th edition then hey, I can wait till the really tasty stuff comes out in the full codex release.

 

Have I missed something, is the second half of the codex available yet? So far all I've seen is this months white dwarfs with the various units and stats, but no points costs or available upgrades detailed.

If that is all that is available then I'm not sure how you can make any kind of effective judgement on the effectiveness of the army when you have no way of playing a list or comparing its costings to other armies?

 

Let's not forget the 50% success rate of faith, since we're talking averages. Average 6 turns per game, 3.5 Faith per turn, for 1.75 successful acts per turn and 10.5 per game. I can assure you that I have used well more than that per game for acts that actually meant something when needed. Now it boils down to a %50 chance to reroll 1s. Huzzah. Don't forget that each unit was also effectively worth twice it's faith because it added to the pool if it died. So if you start with 15, you could have 30 (realistically 25).

I'm with A.T. here. No one's going to buy sisters of battle who doesn't already have them because they're metal and expensive. They didn't even make them finecast for crying out loud. Let's break down the cost of a standard 10 girl dual melta squad in a rhino.

$51.75 for 9 Metal Sisters
$12.75 For the superior
$19.80 for 2 special weapons (+$4.1 for a heavy is HF)
$35 for a Rhino
___________
$119.30

$119 for a single squad, but at least you'll save a little bit of money in the long run because you'll have 2 leftover sisters per buy. Now, let's find out how much my 1k sisters of battle army costs because it's a pretty standard list.

Jump Cannoness (To save a bit, we'll use a Seraphim Superior with a Chainsword)
5 Dominions w/2 meltas and an immolator
Two squads of 10 sisters with melta/hflamer in a rhino
2 Exorcists

Break it down into:
17 basic sisters ($103.50 )
2 Superiors ($24.50 )
4 special weapons ($39.60 )
2 heavy weapons ($28 )
1 Seraphim superior ($12.25)
3 immolator boxes ($105)
2 exorcist boxes ($115.5)

Grand total?

$428.35

That's just for their current points value. If their points drop, the cost of the army is only going to go up. Who in their right mind would pay for that? Should we even consider how amazingly weak the first half of the codex is? Who would pay $428+ for an army who's new rules are widely considered underpowered and lackluster? What could their wargear possibly do to make up for this? No amount of wargear is going to make up for the lack of versatility that sisters had. No amount of wargear is going to make up for the character that they lost. No amount of wargear is going to make them anything but bland and underpowered. Honestly, this is one of those situations where at most the wargear is going to be putting a bandaid over a fatal wound. If the points go down, the price of the army goes up, faith will be spread impossibly thin, and it will be handing kill points to your opponent like candy.

Once the second half of the codex rears it's tainted head, and Sisters of Battle are officially ruined, we all get together and flood GW's email voicing our opinions.

Until then, you have one month of an enjoyable codex left.

Godspeed.

 

No amount of wargear is going to make up for the lack of versatility that sisters had.

You could fix it with pricing and wargear, but it would have to be so ridiculously cheap and effective that it would skew the dex be at odds with the rest of the line. Grey hunter weapon pricing (aka - free weapons), blood chalice auras, and/or a templar style army perk bought with the canoness.

So possible, but unlikely. The pessimist in me says that sisters will be around 10 points each and pay full whack for special weapons, the canoness will be a points-sink, penitents still won't be viable, and henchmen will cost the same as in codex GK despite being broadly inferior.

On the bright side it might motivate me to paint my templar models.

 

Sort this mess out guys.

I have just spent the last half hour reading through and digesting the five pages of this thread. It is starting to degenerate into nothing more than a whinge fest about how bad the sisters are.
Lets get something straight. In a gaming group feel free to change the rules as you and your opponent agree on, however the official rules are the official rules and boycotting them is not going to work. If you don't like the rules don't play with the army because unless you make your own rules and your opponent agrees to let you use them then quite frankly you will not be able to use the army. That is the way it goes is the way it is going to be.

Now Polaria has the right of it. GW want to release a Sisters of Battle book but before they do they need to make sure that they are going to make a profit on it and that there is going to be enough interest to justify investing money into the line. I have already stated several times that this codex is a quick fix and an indication on the direction that GW are taking the Sisters of Battle in that they are the warriors and agents of the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost and the chambers militant of the Ordo Hereticus secondly.
GW are going to be looking at our feedback closely to see how well the list plays out and how better they can fine tune it for the final codex. Quite simply put condemning the list now will condemn the codex to purgatory.

Some of you are going to complain that the faith point system does not take into account large point games. Whilst this is true the WD Sisters of Battle codex is designed for games up to about 1500-1850 points. The reason for this is because the majority of Sisters of Battle players do not have any more than that, especially since a lot of sisters player used allies and until the new codex itself comes out, with a new line of plastic models, it is unlikely they are going to be inclined to buy more Sisters in the near future.
Those of you who do have more than 2000pts worth of nothing else than Sisters of Battle then good for you, but ask yourself this how often do you play games of more than 1500pts to 1850pts.

Now I am of the opinion that this thread has outlived its usefulness and I personally would have closed it by now as it on the verge of turning into a flame war with several people trying fighting a losing battle to keep it on topic. Now I am not one to tread on another moderators toes so I will leave it to their discretion.

Just so you know you have been warned, get this thread back on track.

JvK B)

 

Just so you know you have been warned, get this thread back on track.

Jesus Christ that's a bit heavy handed isn't it - someone created a thread to gripe in and griping is what it contains.

If GW dumps the line it'll be because they have nothing invested in it, and because WD codex didn't convince enough people to shell out a small fortune on limited availability pewter models, not because existing players are unhappy with a pint sized codex shoved in the back of a magazine.

Frankly GW should be excited about the griping - it shows that there are still players who actually care about the line. The idea that condemning it now will condemn it forever is ridiculous, as a professional designer myself the last thing I want is for people to not tell be what is wrong. Feedback is good, even when the feedback is bad.

 

I think that if you have sisters the best thing you can do right now is to get the WDs, play as many test-games you can and post the battle reports into internet. I'm pretty sure this WD 'dex is interim solution and thus any feedback it will get might actually have the chance to affect how the real codex will look.

 

I think that if you have sisters the best thing you can do right now is to get the WDs, play as many test-games you can and post the battle reports into internet

SabrX seems to post the majority that I see (jy2 posts some of them from the other side on LO).
They seemed pretty downbeat about the update. Hopefully they carry on posting battle reports as they are one of the few WH players that do, notably from tournaments.

 

Agreed.

JvK B)

 

That would be interesting to see. I will be curious to see how well the new sisters perform at the cutting edge in the form of tournament play.

JvK B)