I want to buy a greater daemon to make a fluffy chaos army, and I was thinking of which one to get, which in your opinion is the best?
State reasons why.
State reasons why.
KabalOfTheDecayingSoul
Obviously the daemon which represents your legion would be the fluffy one. But if you have a Black Legion list, then you have to make the choice of them.
Gamewise, I don't use Greater Daemons. I just don't think they justify their cost. I'd much rather take a Chaos Lord/Lt. They are fun to use, and look awesome, however. They're great things to have, fluff wise, and can still serve a good role in your army. Now that that's aside...
In general, I usually use a fast bike squad to speed forward and unleash the daemons, but infiltrating squads, and transported squads can get the job done too. I also always give D. Chains to the daemon host, too.
I'd say the most powerful greater daemon is of course the Bloodthirster, but the best cost effeciant greater daemon, the Keeper of Secrets. The other two daemons, Great Unclean One and Lord of Change are both ok, and have their uses, but I'd have to say the Keeper of Secrets rains supreme in my lists above the other greater daemons. Slaanesh is also one of my favorite legions
Although the bloodthirster is wicked powerful, it's a lot more points. 45 points, to be exact. The benefits you get for those 45 points don't justify the cost, IMHO. You already have an excellent weapon skill and strength, so those small upgrades don't have much effect on the actual battle. Sure, you get a 3+ save with the Bloodthirster, but trust me. Your opponent will be shooting him with heavy weapons that have a low ap, like Lascannons, Starcannons, Missile Launchers, etc. Especially sense he looks so menacing. He's quicker, but hopefully if you get a good summoning position, and up the field near the enemy he'll be close enough where it doens't matter much. The Bloodthirster also has a low initiative. The Keeper of Secrets, has Warp Scream, so it will go before most opponents, giving it a tremendous (is that even a word? I mean big...) advantage against other assault infantry, or troops of the enemy.
The Keeper of Secrets (KoS) has a large amount of attacks tieing the Bloodthirster (5) and a decent strength, wounding most things it comes by easily. It's got Warp Scream, which is great (better initiative so goes before most enemies), and is around the average cost of the greater daemons. It can also be used with Daemonettes (I also think these are the best daemons packs...) The only big downfall is not having wings (acting like d. flight), but with good positioning and movement shouldn't be very troublesome. I'd say this is the best of the greater daemons. It also can take a psychic power available to slaanesh sorcerers. This can be a nice little benefit, and is fun to use.
The Bloodthirster comes first in brute force, but is very expensive. BT vs. KoS discussed above...Best strength of the greater daemons capable of instant killing toughness 4 models, which is nice. The 3+ save keeps you safe against small arms fire, but won't protect you from the BFG's. (big guns). It has a low initiative. Close combat oriented foes will go before you, and most likely do a couple of wounds if not actaully kill you. It's the most expensive of all the daemons, and gets no psychic powers. It does however get wings, which is nice and can get you where you need after your summoned. Can also help you recover if you summoned in a bad position. Khornate Frenzy can be annoying if your trying to get to a certain area but the enemy gets in your way, and you're forced to assault. This isn't anything big, or something that you run into that often, but can really render him useless if he gets caught into combat. For example, with massess of conscripts, or something like that. Against hoards he will most likely not make his points back. Great against MEQ enemies, however.
My favorite of the daemons, although not as effective as the greater daemons above, is the Great Unclean one. He's a BEAST! :w00t: A wopping 6 wounds. He soaks up the firepower like crazy, and can take lots of hits, shaking them off. Although he isn't capable of dealing out the damage in combat as much as the other daemons, he can succesfully lock enemies into close combat. Not doing much damage is mainly due to the fact that it has a low amount of attacks, intiative, and low weapon skill (compared to the other greater daemons). This can be especially effective against one of his more valuable units; say, a command squad. Gotta watch out for force weapons though! It's also the cheapest of all the Greater Daemons, which is nice. The Great Unclean One comes along with some nice little gifts, Nurgles Rot and Nurgling Infestation. These can help a bit, but not too much of a noticable advantage. He can also get a psychic power, which is fun.
Last but not least, the Lord of Change. It has an awesome WS, has wings, a psychic power, doesn't have to take a psychic test, decent wounds, and strength. It can instant kill toughness 3 enemies, like guard, but the main con of the LoC is the low amount of attacks. It makes it hard to do enough damage in combat to be really worth it. At the same cost, I think the Keeper of Secrets is a better deal.
None of the greater daemons are neccesarily bad, but some work better then others. Overall, the most powerful is the Bloodthirster, but most cost effective the Keeper of Secrets.
Gamewise, I don't use Greater Daemons. I just don't think they justify their cost. I'd much rather take a Chaos Lord/Lt. They are fun to use, and look awesome, however. They're great things to have, fluff wise, and can still serve a good role in your army. Now that that's aside...
In general, I usually use a fast bike squad to speed forward and unleash the daemons, but infiltrating squads, and transported squads can get the job done too. I also always give D. Chains to the daemon host, too.
I'd say the most powerful greater daemon is of course the Bloodthirster, but the best cost effeciant greater daemon, the Keeper of Secrets. The other two daemons, Great Unclean One and Lord of Change are both ok, and have their uses, but I'd have to say the Keeper of Secrets rains supreme in my lists above the other greater daemons. Slaanesh is also one of my favorite legions
Although the bloodthirster is wicked powerful, it's a lot more points. 45 points, to be exact. The benefits you get for those 45 points don't justify the cost, IMHO. You already have an excellent weapon skill and strength, so those small upgrades don't have much effect on the actual battle. Sure, you get a 3+ save with the Bloodthirster, but trust me. Your opponent will be shooting him with heavy weapons that have a low ap, like Lascannons, Starcannons, Missile Launchers, etc. Especially sense he looks so menacing. He's quicker, but hopefully if you get a good summoning position, and up the field near the enemy he'll be close enough where it doens't matter much. The Bloodthirster also has a low initiative. The Keeper of Secrets, has Warp Scream, so it will go before most opponents, giving it a tremendous (is that even a word? I mean big...) advantage against other assault infantry, or troops of the enemy.
The Keeper of Secrets (KoS) has a large amount of attacks tieing the Bloodthirster (5) and a decent strength, wounding most things it comes by easily. It's got Warp Scream, which is great (better initiative so goes before most enemies), and is around the average cost of the greater daemons. It can also be used with Daemonettes (I also think these are the best daemons packs...) The only big downfall is not having wings (acting like d. flight), but with good positioning and movement shouldn't be very troublesome. I'd say this is the best of the greater daemons. It also can take a psychic power available to slaanesh sorcerers. This can be a nice little benefit, and is fun to use.
The Bloodthirster comes first in brute force, but is very expensive. BT vs. KoS discussed above...Best strength of the greater daemons capable of instant killing toughness 4 models, which is nice. The 3+ save keeps you safe against small arms fire, but won't protect you from the BFG's. (big
guns). It has a low initiative. Close combat oriented foes will go before you, and most likely do a couple of wounds if not actaully kill you. It's the most expensive of all the daemons, and gets no psychic powers. It does however get wings, which is nice and can get you where you need after your summoned. Can also help you recover if you summoned in a bad position. Khornate Frenzy can be annoying if your trying to get to a certain area but the enemy gets in your way, and you're forced to assault. This isn't anything big, or something that you run into that often, but can really render him useless if he gets caught into combat. For example, with massess of conscripts, or something like that. Against hoards he will most likely not make his points back. Great against MEQ enemies, however.My favorite of the daemons, although not as effective as the greater daemons above, is the Great Unclean one. He's a BEAST! :w00t: A wopping 6 wounds. He soaks up the firepower like crazy, and can take lots of hits, shaking them off. Although he isn't capable of dealing out the damage in combat as much as the other daemons, he can succesfully lock enemies into close combat. Not doing much damage is mainly due to the fact that it has a low amount of attacks, intiative, and low weapon skill (compared to the other greater daemons). This can be especially effective against one of his more valuable units; say, a command squad. Gotta watch out for force weapons though! It's also the cheapest of all the Greater Daemons, which is nice. The Great Unclean One comes along with some nice little gifts, Nurgles Rot and Nurgling Infestation. These can help a bit, but not too much of a noticable advantage. He can also get a psychic power, which is fun.
Last but not least, the Lord of Change. It has an awesome WS, has wings, a psychic power, doesn't have to take a psychic test, decent wounds, and strength. It can instant kill toughness 3 enemies, like guard, but the main con of the LoC is the low amount of attacks. It makes it hard to do enough damage in combat to be really worth it. At the same cost, I think the Keeper of Secrets is a better deal.
None of the greater daemons are neccesarily bad, but some work better then others. Overall, the most powerful is the Bloodthirster, but most cost effective the Keeper of Secrets.
*reads the above* Yup. Very True.
KoS with 2 Minor powers (hopefully Fuelled by Pain & Siren) and Doombolt or Wind of Chaos. It's great.
KoS with 2 Minor powers (hopefully Fuelled by Pain & Siren) and Doombolt or Wind of Chaos. It's great.
Nicely put. Only thing I would say is that for me the Lord of Change is just a wee bit better than its Slaaneshii counterpart. Reason: Bolt of Change.
1.) This acts as another attack, basically. It is an assualt classed attack, at an even better strength than the daemon itself, and is effectively a power weapon that hits on a 3+ every time.
2.) In addition to that, there is the traditional way of thinking of it: as a ranged weapon good for tank busting or whatever.
3.) Its free! Since it is the most expensive power available to all of chaos, it is most cost efficient to take it.
Hey, what did you expect, I'm a Tzeentch player!:shifty:
1.) This acts as another attack, basically. It is an assualt classed attack, at an even better strength than the daemon itself, and is effectively a power weapon that hits on a 3+ every time.
2.) In addition to that, there is the traditional way of thinking of it: as a ranged weapon good for tank busting or whatever.
3.) Its free! Since it is the most expensive power available to all of chaos, it is most cost efficient to take it.
Hey, what did you expect, I'm a Tzeentch player!:shifty:
Lord of Change is also my favorite Greater Daemon for a few reasons:
He flies like the Bloodthirster, he's just as tough physically and in wounds as the bloodthirster, so he'll stay alive just as good versus shooting, and only slightly worse in CC. One reason why I would go with the LoC over the Bloodthirster? _ initiative. That puts him ahead of the KoS for me as well, as I value the _a with I_ over _a with I_.
Ok, next reason - _BS as opposed to _. The Bloodthirster cannot take psychic powers, so for me, that makes him an easy choice to scrap. The KoS has no mobility, so I would choose the LoC any day of the week. Bolt of Change with no test on a model with wings, _T and _ wounds? The _ WS as opposed to _ of the KoS isn't likely to really come into play very often unless going up against Eldar Phoenix Lords and Exarches...but it's one more advantage the LoC has.
In my opinion, the Lord of Change is the best all-around Greater Daemon in the Chaos universe. Flying, incredible psychic power, Initiative _...He gets my vote for sure. - That's great, but I'd like it if you didn't post stats. Thanks. - Firedrake28
-Eclipse
He flies like the Bloodthirster, he's just as tough physically and in wounds as the bloodthirster, so he'll stay alive just as good versus shooting, and only slightly worse in CC. One reason why I would go with the LoC over the Bloodthirster? _ initiative. That puts him ahead of the KoS for me as well, as I value the _a with I_ over _a with I_.
Ok, next reason - _BS as opposed to _. The Bloodthirster cannot take psychic powers, so for me, that makes him an easy choice to scrap. The KoS has no mobility, so I would choose the LoC any day of the week. Bolt of Change with no test on a model with wings, _T and _ wounds? The _ WS as opposed to _ of the KoS isn't likely to really come into play very often unless going up against Eldar Phoenix Lords and Exarches...but it's one more advantage the LoC has.
In my opinion, the Lord of Change is the best all-around Greater Daemon in the Chaos universe. Flying, incredible psychic power, Initiative _...He gets my vote for sure. - That's great, but I'd like it if you didn't post stats. Thanks. - Firedrake28
-Eclipse
The best daemon in 40k is the Slaanesh forgeworld greater daemon. For 200 points less than An'ggrath(the Khorne forgeworld greater daemon), it always wounds on a 4 plus and ignores all saves. I'm sure the Slaanesh one goes first aswell in combat so im very, very upset by this
I put my money down the Lord of Change being the most useful.
Sure he doesn't have quite so many attacks, however if you give the Winds of Chaos ppsychic power, it can burn quite a few models dead with the flamer template before the assault happens. As a bonus, nothing from Hormagaunts to Terminators are safe behind their armour save.
He also has a good Initiative, and with wings can jump around the battlefield to where he is most needed and has the movement to put that flamer template to good use.
Sure he doesn't have quite so many attacks, however if you give the Winds of Chaos ppsychic power, it can burn quite a few models dead with the flamer template before the assault happens. As a bonus, nothing from Hormagaunts to Terminators are safe behind their armour save.
He also has a good Initiative, and with wings can jump around the battlefield to where he is most needed and has the movement to put that flamer template to good use.
There is not best Greater Deamon (in 40k at least).
The reason is that all depends on your play style and the fluff that goes with the Chaos God you like the most. End of story.
I've always felt that in 40k the Blood Thirster is overrated. The Keeper of Secrets however, god i love he/she/it. I always give it three minor power ( cough cough fueled by pain, siren) and gift of chaos. The delivery squad pretty much always infiltrates. And he/she/it, comes out on the second turn in most games. Its really mean, but fun to watch your opponent glare at you when you pop this great big demon out in their lines on the second turn. But my demon never works alone. My demon prince always runs in with it just to insure that anything else that could have possible shot, charge it doesn't.
I like the Lord of Change.
My only problem with him is that he precludes and Nurgle units. (Yes, I know there are many ways of doing it legally, but.. think of the fluff people!)
As stated above Keeper of Secrets is an excellent terror agent. Kind of erotic too
I like the great unclean one. With gift of chaos, he kind of gets another attack so isn't too shabby (apart from his guts hanging out).
I think the blood thirster is a bit too expensive to fit in comfy anywhere in small/medium point games.
My only problem with him is that he precludes and Nurgle units. (Yes, I know there are many ways of doing it legally, but.. think of the fluff people!)
As stated above Keeper of Secrets is an excellent terror agent. Kind of erotic too
I like the great unclean one. With gift of chaos, he kind of gets another attack so isn't too shabby (apart from his guts hanging out).
I think the blood thirster is a bit too expensive to fit in comfy anywhere in small/medium point games.
Note: I've never used the LoC, so all my comments are still bound to the paper and not the actual table top. I have, however, used the KoS, but only in casual games.
LoC: While the LoC has the option to take the BoC, this isn't THAT much of an advantage. For one, BoC is designed to take down vehicles, but on a greater daemon, the psychic power is usually fired once (maybe twice), and then the daemon charges into c.c. While this one shot tank buster is nice, it's not (IMHO) enough to tip the scales towards the LoC, not at least by itself. In c.c. the LoC has two less attack than the KoS & the Thirster. Against troops, this translates to roughly an additional rounds of c.c. that the KoS requires to do the same thing as the Thirster and the KoS. Against monstrous creatres the 6 strength reduces its ability to inflict wounds by roughly 30% when compared to the the other two mentioned greater daemons. The same can be said to some degree about taking down vehicles at a 20-30% effective reduction.
The flight advantage of the LoC over KoS is definitely something to consider. In effect, the LoC potentially gets into c.c. one round earlier (which helps to compensate for the low attacks). This is perhaps the main reason to take the LoC.
In longer games, the KoS definitely does more damage than the LoC, simply because of the additional two attacks. The longer the KoS remains on the table, the more porportional damage it will do in comparison to the LoC.
LoC: While the LoC has the option to take the BoC, this isn't THAT much of an advantage. For one, BoC is designed to take down vehicles, but on a greater daemon, the psychic power is usually fired once (maybe twice), and then the daemon charges into c.c. While this one shot tank buster is nice, it's not (IMHO) enough to tip the scales towards the LoC, not at least by itself. In c.c. the LoC has two less attack than the KoS & the Thirster. Against troops, this translates to roughly an additional rounds of c.c. that the KoS requires to do the same thing as the Thirster and the KoS. Against monstrous creatres the 6 strength reduces its ability to inflict wounds by roughly 30% when compared to the the other two mentioned greater daemons. The same can be said to some degree about taking down vehicles at a 20-30% effective reduction.
The flight advantage of the LoC over KoS is definitely something to consider. In effect, the LoC potentially gets into c.c. one round earlier (which helps to compensate for the low attacks). This is perhaps the main reason to take the LoC.
In longer games, the KoS definitely does more damage than the LoC, simply because of the additional two attacks. The longer the KoS remains on the table, the more porportional damage it will do in comparison to the LoC.
I think the Keeper of Secrets..
She's cheap compared to a bloodthirster and kills units at the same rate.. She may not be the character slayer the LoC is, but since most characters hide in units anyway she will probably get to them faster. Her inititative isn't bad, and she can be cheesed out with mass Slanneshi minor powers if needs be.
I run mine as a MeQ killer with Wind of Chaos and, apart from once getting randomly mindwarred to death by a lucky farseer, she's always done well. Once took out a black templar command squad (about double her points) single handedly, which was very pleasing.
Any greater daemon can be fluffy, but the KoS isn't bad on the fluff-o-meter. Fluffwise, my army is a crazed lotus cult of marines dedicated to the worship of the keeper. They travel around 'spreading the word' the good old Slanneshi way.
She's cheap compared to a bloodthirster and kills units at the same rate.. She may not be the character slayer the LoC is, but since most characters hide in units anyway she will probably get to them faster. Her inititative isn't bad, and she can be cheesed out with mass Slanneshi minor powers if needs be.
I run mine as a MeQ killer with Wind of Chaos and, apart from once getting randomly mindwarred to death by a lucky farseer, she's always done well. Once took out a black templar command squad (about double her points) single handedly, which was very pleasing.
Any greater daemon can be fluffy, but the KoS isn't bad on the fluff-o-meter. Fluffwise, my army is a crazed lotus cult of marines dedicated to the worship of the keeper. They travel around 'spreading the word' the good old Slanneshi way.
avatar > any chaos demon
he will walk through any infantry all day long.
i played a 3 way ffa 1k point game. eldar vs wh vs sm
the avatar single handedly killed the ENTIRE marine force and 2 squads from the wh army before he died.
due to ws infantry need 5's to hit, his T means infantry need 6's to wound. his str means he needs 3's to hit and 2's to wound infantry and he ignores armor. then he has an invuln save and multiple wounds.
my 205 point demon prince has a similar statline, but the fact the avatar has higher init means he wins in combat everytime.
not only that but now he ignores melta weapons...
in the old dex he was comparable to chaos demons just half the cost. now hes around the same cost (- the fact you have to sacrifice a champion, which makes him still cheaper then any other demon) but WAY more effective.
he will walk through any infantry all day long.
i played a 3 way ffa 1k point game. eldar vs wh vs sm
the avatar single handedly killed the ENTIRE marine force and 2 squads from the wh army before he died.
due to ws infantry need 5's to hit, his T means infantry need 6's to wound. his str means he needs 3's to hit and 2's to wound infantry and he ignores armor. then he has an invuln save and multiple wounds.
my 205 point demon prince has a similar statline, but the fact the avatar has higher init means he wins in combat everytime.
not only that but now he ignores melta weapons...
in the old dex he was comparable to chaos demons just half the cost. now hes around the same cost (- the fact you have to sacrifice a champion, which makes him still cheaper then any other demon) but WAY more effective.
It doesn't matter if the Eldar avatar is better then a greater daemon. The thread is comparing the greater daemons, not including the eldar avatar. Besides, it doesn't matter how effective the greater daemon is agaisnt the avatar one on one; it's how effective they are against other enemies. The Avatar may be more effective then a greater daemon, but the avatar isn't a chaos unit.
And I don't mean to come off as offensive, sorry if I did.
And I don't mean to come off as offensive, sorry if I did.
well the avatar is a greater demon, hence why i posted what i did
out of demons from the chaos codex id say bloodthirster. hes the best in cc, the fastest with flight, and the hardest to kill due to 3+/5+ save.
i dont think they are worth the points costs though. id rather tool up a demon prince. they can be made very similar to whatever demon you want and they dont have to be summoned. you also dont have to sacrifice a champion to get one, which to me is a big deal considering how good chaos champions can be.
out of demons from the chaos codex id say bloodthirster. hes the best in cc, the fastest with flight, and the hardest to kill due to 3+/5+ save.
i dont think they are worth the points costs though. id rather tool up a demon prince. they can be made very similar to whatever demon you want and they dont have to be summoned. you also dont have to sacrifice a champion to get one, which to me is a big deal considering how good chaos champions can be.
Any fool can post something which is vaguely related to sound clever. I could get all the stats for the forgeworld greater greater daemons and put them here and bask in my own glory. Big deal.
This is a post about greater daemons, the context of which is specifically the Chaos greater daemons. Every poster here realises and knows that a daemon prince can be made to be more efficient for points put into him.
Sorry to post like this, but it's clear that Inquisitor Hause's gentle hints haven't got through.
So please man, try not to post so wildly off topic, and take the stats out of your post too.
I guess you have a point, but I was thinking solely chaos daemons, sense it was in the chaos board.well the avatar is a greater demon, hence why i posted what i did
STOP GOING OFF TOPIC!
You are not super word smith man, we all know this is about Chaos, hence why it is in the chaos section, go bask in Avatars glory, if you want a truly good CC hq, look at the DE dex and cry.
Anyways, I just wanted one cause its just a cool thing to have in a Chaos army, I know its not very good strategic wise, its just pretty cool,
I think I am going to take the LoC. Its either him or KoS
You are not super word smith man, we all know this is about Chaos, hence why it is in the chaos section, go bask in Avatars glory, if you want a truly good CC hq, look at the DE dex and cry.
Anyways, I just wanted one cause its just a cool thing to have in a Chaos army, I know its not very good strategic wise, its just pretty cool,
I think I am going to take the LoC. Its either him or KoS
Ok... I don't have much to add in terms of the debate (Although I lean towards the Lord of Change). I just wanted to clarify something... many of you are stating the KoS is fantastic, especially when coupled with fuelled by pain. You'll note that you only get the extra attacks by passing armour saves. Seeing as how the KoS only has an invulnerable save.... I believe I've made my point...
And a good point it is you've made Sach man
However, i think that the basic KoS just with Wind or Gift of Chaos is probably the best deal.
An extra X points for psychic powers could probably be better spent elsewhere.
Even without fuelled by pain or any minor psychic power, I think the KoS is overall the most cost effective option.
However, i think that the basic KoS just with Wind or Gift of Chaos is probably the best deal.
An extra X points for psychic powers could probably be better spent elsewhere.
Even without fuelled by pain or any minor psychic power, I think the KoS is overall the most cost effective option.
I think most of us here have established this already.
Anyway, I stand by what I said earlier. I think KoS is the most effective greater daemon chaos has access to.
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