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Deep-Striking - How to calculate the risk

2.8K views 20 replies 13 participants last post by  Red Archer  
#1 ·
Hi there, my brethren-in-arms!

I spontaneously visited the Imperial Guard forum last night and came across a thread about drop troops. Since I myself am hardly ever concerned of the issue of scattering (drop pods are pretty safe to land close to the enemy, my terminators usually come in in the vincinity of veterans with teleport homers) I have never before cared much to translate the risks into seizable numbers.
Last night, though, I juggled some probabilities and did some calculations. And since today I was confronted with the problem of estimating the risk of scattering fatally upon deep-striking to a specfic position here I thought it would not hurt to share my results.


Scattering has two components: distance and direction. For our purposes we will measure range in inches (who could have guessed) and direction in degrees. While the latter is indicated completely by the scatter die the first is determined by both the distance dice and the scatter die (which can turn up with a "hit"). Do not be bothered with that too much yet, though.

Distance
Our scatter distance is 0" and 2-12" in increments of 1" each. Note that it is impossible to scatter 1". The following list provides percent chances of scattering the given number of inches or less.
0" (or less): 33.3%
2" (or less): 35.2%
3" (or less): 38.9%
4" (or less): 44.4%
5" (or less): 51.9%
6" (or less): 61.1%
7" (or less): 72.2%
8" (or less): 81.5%
9" (or less): 88.9%
10" (or less): 94.5%
11" (or less): 98.2%
12" (or less): 100.0%

This is pretty much it.

Direction
Now we need to work in the direction. Following the assumption that it is equally probable to scatter in any one direction we can calculate the risk of scattering into certain unopportune locations (enemy units, friendly units, impassable terrain) by dividing all possible directions (360°) by the arcs that pose a threat.

Example
This may sound complicated and can indeed be in some situations. Let me elaborate these theoretical considerations in an easy example as to show how the given ideas are supposed to be used.
A unit of terminators is to deep-strike near a squad of Necron warriors. As the terminators will want to be sure to be able to assault the enemy in the turn following its arrival it is supposed to land within 6" of its target, that then could not foot-slog out of the 12" effective assault range of the terminators. But more important than deep-striking this close is the safety of the terminators who should hit secure ground (and not be destroyed due to bad scatter) with a probability of about 80%. The terrain is free of other units or impassable terrain.
When the terminators are placed in front of the squad of Necron warriors the latter will probably occupy an approximate 120° arc of the terminators' surroundings. Since 120° is a third of 360° the danger of scattering into the Necrons at any given distance can be divided by three. If you are willing to run a risk of 20% (100% - 80% safety) of your terminators scattering into the Necron warriors you can thus take a 60% (3 x 20%) of scattering too far because only a third of all directions are positively dangerous. Thus you would deep-strike your terminators 4" from the Necron warriors, the probability of scattering a maximum of 3" being 38.9%, the risk of scattering further (and eventually coming within 1" of enemy models thus being destroyed) therefore being 61.1% (100% - 38.9%), in the direction of the warriors only about 20% (a third of it). [Of course this is a little approximated since if you don't scatter directly towards the warriors but a little diagonally to them you could probably even scatter 4" without being harmed.]
Trying to deep-strike 4" in front of the enemy then still leaves you with an approximate 40%+ chance of effectively landing within 6" of the enemy squad (2" or less scatter away from the enemy squad with a probability of 35%/3 being negligible, 3" or less scatter towards the enemy squad with a probability of 39%/3 not being a problem either, and a scatter of 4" or less parallel to the enemy squad with a probability of 45%/3 being tolerable too, for a total of tightly calculated 40%).



Of course those calculations remain rules of thumb due to the arcs in our calculations remaining rather large increments instead of infinitely small ones like in an integral. Still these numbers and considerations are perhaps inspiration or orientation guide enough to prove useful to some player intending to deep-strike his troops with a rather carefully calculated (in comparison to purely intuitive estimation) amount of risk.
But regardless of this hopefully useful breakdown it is of course completely up to you to decide where you draw the line! Your style of play determines just how much risk you are willing to take in order to gain certain advantegous positions...

Enjoy the game and good luck with your scatter dice!
Regards,
Archer


P.S.: sorry if things are difficult to understand. I am still having problems expressing myself on complex matters in this language.
 
#2 ·
that just made me feel dumb :|

haha, that was far too complicated for me to understand :p but intead of complaining i will congratulate you on your calculations :D

i hope 1 day, i too will have a spacemarine brain and be able to calculate on a similar level :D

Shaabhekh :happy:
 
#3 ·
well I am not coming from the exact same angle as you all, actually probably the opposite. As a Tyranid player, if I don't deepstrike my Lictors within 6" they are basically lost.

Deepstriking always seems risky too me, but with marines since you don't always have to land within 6" that doesn't seem as bad. If your terminators don't reach you still have stormbolters and a +2 armour save to bail you out for an additional turn, right? I also think leaving a squad off table for a turn can help your opponent forget about them and allow them to sway the game when they come in.

As someone who loves Lictors I think I have to ignore the numbers because far too many times have I striked within 3" of an enemy and rolled a bulleye destorying nealy an entire havoc squad in one turn.
 
#5 ·
well this is nice, but since you declared that the percentages are (X" or less) it can be quite misleading. For example there are 6 sides to the scatter die. and there are 2 hit sides. so you will scatter 2/3s of the time or 66%. when you do scatter the chance to scatter 2" is the same for every other possiblity... (9%).. at least i think it is. :?.. anyway... cool post regardless
 
#6 ·
Hm, I am not exactly sure what you are saying. But I will try to answer nonetheless. Please be patient if we talk past each other... ;)
So, yes. There is a 33.3% chance of not scattering (i.e. scattering 0", as listed above) and a 66.7% chance of scattering something around 2-12". When listing the probability of scattering x" or less I have always included the chance of not scattering at all.
Now, if we scatter we do not, as you say (hope I am not getting you wrong on this) have the same chance for scattering 2" as we do for scattering 5". Because with 2d6 there is only one possibility to roll a 2 (1,1), but there are 4 posibilities to roll a 5 (4,1; 3,2; 2,3; 1,4). So the chance of scattering exactly 2" is 1/36 (1 out of 36 possible combinations that can be rolled with 2d6) of the chance of scattering at all (66.7%), equaling a chance of 1.9%.
That means that the chance of not scattering or scattering exactly 2" would be 33.3% + 1.9% resulting in 35.2% as given above.

Regards,
Archer
 
#10 ·
Because my post seems a little difficult to understand I will write up a tutorial on how to calculate the risk this weekend, along with a "plan your own deep-strike"-kit featuring all the numbers you need in handy tables so you can just more or less "look it up" without doing much calculating yourself. I will add some more examples there and visualize them with some battlefield pictures. Any maybe even add some considerations on what to deep-strike when and where (at least for us space marines). Hope I can spare the time for that project! Look forward to it.

Regards,
Archer
 
#11 ·
This thread is both ingenuitive and inspireing! :) rep for you!

Though i have NEVER (yep never) used drop pods not even in a test situations because my last marine army before my mech guard was my first army ever and my grasp of all the rules was just, not good lol. Recently in my hunt for a new distinguishable chapter to begin building, ive considered a orbital strike force many times (both the all out army drops and a partial drop force) it always seemed very risky, these numbers comfort me some, but as i found with my first marine army, depending on numbers and percentages often leads to your doom. regardless drop podding seems a more viable option now, thanks for the post

Cheers

SL
 
#12 ·
Thank you, Architect of the Penitent!
And to comfort you even more: read the codex again concerning the rules on drop pods. They are actually very safe to deep-strike! If you are solely using them (and not teleporting terminators, or deep-striking assault marines in escalation games or whatever) you do not need to fear destruction to due a bad scatter (unless you roll off the table), but of course you will still like to stay safe from scattering out of rapid-firing range.

Regards,
Archer
 
#13 ·
I've never really thought about the math of deep striking, this thread is an enlightener. However I have only had one problem happen once while deep striking and that was landing a quarter inch off the board. Keep in mind that I deep strike with my necrons using the necron veil of darkness.

I tend to have spectacular luck with my deep striking and if I drift, than it's not much or is just out of 1" of destruction.

Like I said, I had one problem once with it. It was during a capture the flag mission, you had to walk/run off the table with it. I vod'd out of combat only to drift 1/4" too far or just a few degrees too far in one direction and the squad died... Sadly I lost that game...
 
#14 ·
It was during a capture the flag mission, you had to walk/run off the table with it. I vod'd out of combat only to drift 1/4" too far or just a few degrees too far in one direction and the squad died... Sadly I lost that game...
That's unfortunate! ;o


Sorry: the weekend is over and I couldn't finish my tutorial. I hope I will find the time soon, so keep an eye out for what I have come to call "a deep-striker's guide to mathhammer 40.000"... ;)
 
#15 ·
Wow, very nice work Red Archer! ;Y

I play Blood Angels (which doesn't deep-strike at all) and Deathwing (that is all deep-
striking).

With my Deathwing I'm not too concerned with landing close enough to assault next turn.
All my weapons have a 24in range. But I am concerned about impassable terrain, and
landing too close to another squad that it makes me a larger target for template weapons.

Thanks for the math work this will be very useful to me.

Brother Luctus
 
#16 · (Edited)
Wowz

That was a pretty impressive breakdown of numbers, and I can't help but wonder how long it took you. But, either way, congratulations on the well thought out guide. I must say I dislike Deep Strike because of it's reliance on luck, which I try to steer clear of. I really think 40% is way too high of a failure chance. Especially if you're running more than one group of Deep Strikers. 2x Deep Strikes(In the scenario indicated above) would result in an 80% chance of one of the squads becoming ineffective, 3x Deep Strikes would be a (purely statistical) 120% chance of failure for 1 squad and a 36% chance of two squads being ineffective or dying. (2/5 of failing with one, 2/5 of failing with the second, multiply and you get a 4/25 chance of failing with both, plus 2/5=10/25 divide by two because of two other squads is 5/25 for the third Deep Strike ends up being 9/25=36% chance of failing with two of the squads.) Yes, the numbers are convoluted but I think they work... Maybe... I'm not really a math brain, but that's what I came up with. If someone could check my numbers, that would be nice.

Deep Strike Homers on Bikes or such makes Terminators far more viable, but deep striking Assault Teams still remain difficult. To conclude, Deep Strike is nice but a large part of the time it's like handing your enemy a bunch of free points.
 
#17 ·
I am not going to take position for or against deep-striking, but as far as I am concerned I have fared very well with it. Drop pods make it a lot safer to do, as do teleport homers. I use both, and usually these two options are the only ones I use for deep-striking.
Sometimes I deep-strike terminators without a teleport homer, but since I strongly dislike assault terminators I can deep-strike my assault cannon toting squads safely out of scatter-gone-bad-destroys-the-squad range.
(I have never yet suffered any losses from bad scatters...)

This breakdown does not benefit us space marines all that much because we do little close-up deep-striking. You are very right there.
What are we supposed to deep-strike anyhow? Landspeeders? I'd rather move 12" and shoot or speed up to 24" into cover than scatter about on the battle-field and wait for the next turn. Assault marines? I'd rather move them up the board 12" into cover and next turn move another 12" and assault 6" than scatter about on the battle-field and wait for the next turn. Both units have a movement range big enough to get anywhere on the board without running the risk of deep-striking them. Even in escalation where they MUST start in reserve.
There's only drop pods and terminators left, then. Drop pods can't scatter onto impassable terrain and terminators can use teleport homers or stay 12" away. Assault terminators are another thing, but I do not recommend using them anyhow.

Don't see this little breakdown as a puff piece on deep-striking. Deep-striking is risky. But some people still have good reasons to do it anyhow, and the calculations as outlined here can help them control the risk. I hope I will soon find the time to revise this article soon and clarify some details.
 
#18 ·
The revision of this breakdown has made good progress this weekend. It comes with more detail in explanation, some extra considerations and a lot of examples visualized in simple drawings.
I hope to finish it today (that is Monday already for us Germans) or some other day throughout the week. If you're interested keep an eye out for it! I'll post any news here...
 
#20 ·
One of my regular opponents plays Daemons, and that gives me a good amount of experience dealing with the standard Deep Striking rules. These odds are very useful, but the only caveat is the standard deviation involved with the relatively small number of scatters being rolled (even with Daemons). One game, may see every unit land right on target, while the next may see a few units become delayed, detoured, or lost. It averages out over the long haul, but within each game, results can vary drastically.

As has been mentioned, units effective at range are better at Deep Striking and have fewer mishaps because you can afford to put them in a safer location.
 
#21 ·
This is always the problem with random events: they are random and you can never foresee the outcome of a singular case. All this evens out over infinity - so you may even have 11250819519359286 games against daemons where not one scatter is ever rolled but everything lands on target. It is chance.
But even though this is not impossible it is very, very improbable. And probabilities is all we have. And I think that knowing your odds is a great heap of help. ;)