I know that my friend who is slowly starting behind me is going to start Night Goblins and use Fanatics. Despite the point cost of Waywatchers I plan to use them, between the low leadership of Gobbos and the high BS of the Waywatchers not only are they going to be march blockers for me but they are going to be first fear factors to try and get the gobbos to run away rather then having to meet them all in combat.

 

You'd be better off using scouts for this. They're cheaper, don't use a rare slot and you can have as many units as you've got normal glade guard. They can also carry a magic banner, such as the one (I can't remember name) that increases march block distance to 12".

They're better all-round for the purpose you intend.

GS

 

You'd be better off using scouts for this. They're cheaper, don't use a rare slot and you can have as many units as you've got normal glade guard. They can also carry a magic banner, such as the one (I can't remember name) that increases march block distance to 12".

Thought of that, but scouts don't provide the killing blow that will useful against other armies, and I'll only be playing against gobbos this summer. And although Scouts are cheaper, I like Waywatchers too much and there is no other rare slot unit that I like or would consider over this unit. Great Eagles are nice but I like killing blow and I like Waywatchers. Even though they are a point blow one of the things I go with is, I'm going to use units that I like model wise as well as stats wise. Also thought of using Waywatchers as scouts but it just doesn't feel right, hence using them as they were meant to be used.

 

And although Scouts are cheaper, I like Waywatchers too much and there is no other rare slot unit that I like or would consider over this unit. Great Eagles are nice but I like killing blow and I like Waywatchers.

Can't exactly fault you for feeling this way, but if the question is "are they a good throw-away unit?" then I'd have to say the answer is pretty likely to be "no".

Waywatchers are oodles of cool, no doubt about it, but they're not exactly the most stalwart of CC participants. Using them to bait fanatics and hoping they live to do something afterward is quite a gamble - as David mentioned, there are other options for getting the nasty little buggers to come out. Not liking the other options doesn't make them any less viable, it just makes them less desirable to you.

But, as with everything, the true test is in the playing - give it a shot and see how it works out. I think if the waywatchers manage to survive it could be a sound investment. That's quite an "if" though.

 

One trick for fanatics to use the Moonstone of Hidden Ways. Teleport to a wood, assuming its available, within 8" of the Night Goblin unit early in the game, and you'll force your opponent to make a decision about where to send the fanatics.

A much better throw away unit is an eagle. Cheap and expendable and can also get in range on turn one most of the time.

 

You'd be better off using scouts for this. They're cheaper, don't use a rare slot and you can have as many units as you've got normal glade guard. They can also carry a magic banner, such as the one (I can't remember name) that increases march block distance to 12".

Went out and thought on this and came up with a much more sound argument.

Should you take a minimum size unit of scouts & the banner of zenith, your paying 10 less points for the march blocker and the five scouts.

For ten more points you lose the banner, but your BS goes up which & you gain the killing blow special rule.

Between these that should be enough, comparing wise, the bows from each unit are the same strength because the scouts lose their Glade Guard Longbows. So that means the amount of kills that the scouts attain ought to be roughly 1 less then that of the Waywatchers. It does all depend on how you roll the dice, but for the extra 10pts I'd rather have a unit of Waywatchers.

Waywatchers are oodles of cool, no doubt about it, but they're not exactly the most stalwart of CC participants.

Granted they won't last as long as Dryads in assault they are still likely to have more attacks then the unit charging them, due to there 2 hand weapons. And between assault and shooting if Gobbos aren't running away then you still should have plenty of units in the background to make sure that they do run.

I don't recall who said it, it may have been misanthrope09 or it could have been someone else can't recall, but I do remember them saying that it's not always the points you pay for a unit, but what that unit can do for you. IE. Although Waywatchers are expensive because they are more threatening then Scouts they are more likely to draw attention, whether or not they kill enough models to earn back their points is iffy. But in doing so they may draw the attention away from some more valuable units, that might win you the game. And should they be ignored it could possibly cause your opponent a world of hurt depending on your dice rolls.

 

I don't recall who said it, it may have been misanthrope09 or it could have been someone else can't recall,

Kinda sounds like something I'd say, but I don't remember.

I do remember them saying that it's not always the points you pay for a unit, but what that unit can do for you. IE. Although Waywatchers are expensive because they are more threatening then Scouts they are more likely to draw attention, whether or not they kill enough models to earn back their points is iffy.

I can't deny this point - very true, and very valid. I just don't agree that waywatchers are a worthy investment for a suicide run to release some fanatics. To me their usefulness can be applied in better places, especially when compared a cheaper unit of scouts or a much cheaper eagle.

I guess on the note of a waywatchers coolness and usefulness, I find them to be too cool and too useful to risk in this manner. There are too many roles they can perform that other units might have trouble with, and they can't do much to intimidate your opponent into position if they're turned into elfy smears before things get rolling.

 

I guess on the note of a waywatchers coolness and usefulness, I find them to be too cool and too useful to risk in this manner. There are too many roles they can perform that other units might have trouble with, and they can't do much to intimidate your opponent into position if they're turned into elfy smears before things get rolling.

Well if a better target presents itself then shoot at that target instead, and hope it forces the others to run, but if the fanatics are the only thing to shoot at what else are you going to do? Run Away until you find a better target?

 

No, but what I believe is being suggested here is to deploy the Waywatchers close enough to the fanatic-containing unit so as to force the fanatics to release immediately. In this case, the Waywatchers would be immediately assaulted, yes? If so, all flexibility is taken away since the Waywatchers must survive an attack from a fanatic before anything else can be considered for them. Seems like the Waywatchers are pretty likely to suffer greatly from this attack, and may not survive at all - so in this case, there is the potential to buy an entire unit of Waywatchers that will do nothing more than die immediately.

Sure they've lured out the fanatic, but the question is still "is this a worthy use of Waywatchers?" I'm still not convinced it is.

Someone please tell me if I've misinterpreted the question.

 

No, but what I believe is being suggested here is to deploy the Waywatchers close enough to the fanatic-containing unit so as to force the fanatics to release immediately. In this case, the Waywatchers would be immediately assaulted, yes?

If this is what is meant by the question then I would have misunderstood it as well, and I wouldn't even consider scouts a better resolution.

Can someone give me a basic run-down on fanatics, IE. them being released? What is it they are capable of? Aside ripping us apart?

 

If you get within a certain range of a unit of night goblins housing one or more fanatics, then play stops and the OG general must release all the fanatics, in any direction he chooses from that edge of the Night Goblins.

Each fanatic travels 2D6" in that direction. It can die if certain things happen--running into just about anything other than the enemy--or it can smash right into you causing several S5 hits.

In subsequent OG movement phases, the fanatics travel in random directions, sometimes reversing course into an OG unit.

So you exchange a bit of randomness for the potential of wreaking great harm on the enemy.

A fanatic would decimate any unit of Wood Elves scouts. WWs cost around 25 points each. They excel at ambushing war machines, unless they autohit, and taking out stray wizards or light units like fast cav or skirmishers. Sometimes you get lucky and roll killing blow against some knights, but you'd be doing good to get one of those a turn from a minimal unit of 5 WWs.

Sometimes, it's good to pop the fanatic(s) loose and let them spin around for a turn or two. It can be just as bad for the OG player as it can for you.

My point about the Moonstone of Hidden Ways is that if you reappear in a wooded terrain piece, then the fanatic can't spin out towards that teleported unit. Doing so would mean the fanatic self-immolates when it hits the woods.

Therefore, you force the OG player to push the fanatics out in some other direction, perhaps earlier than he'd hoped for, and those fanatics can slow down the OG advance and maybe smack them for some Str 5 hits.

To answer the question directly, I think using WWs as fanatic bait is worthwhile if the WWs can keep to the woods so that the fanatic can't hit them. Then they could move on to shoot at some other unit, charge a warmachine, jump some spider riders, and generally cause problems, all the while preserving their unit cost of approx. 125 pts.

If you mean throwing them pell-mell at a unit of night goblins knowing that one or more fanatics might be coming your way and expecting them to die, then no. Why not save 75 pts and get a great eagle instead?

 

If you were to deploy WW close enough to trigger fanatics then they have to be out of sight, so they're probably in a forest. Fanatics will hit the forest and die before they hit the WW.

WW are great in CC, they do have 2 hand weapons and WS 4. They are great at taking down archers b/c of their extra -1 to hit with shooting which gives them better survivability.

Throw away waywatchers won the game for me, and an army box against Ogres last weekend.

He went first but b/c I was able to deploy so close to him half his army was march blocked and I gained enough time to employ other tactics.

 

WW are great in CC

..........

 

Personally, a unit of "throw-away" WW's seems too much of a waste to me, unless as DavidVC said, you can keep them in a wood and still trigger fanatics. Otherwise an eagle or scouts do the same job for cheaper, and don't take a rare choice up.

 

Assuming all of this was the intention, how are scouts not better suited for this role? Again, I am not trying to extol the merits of scouts over waywatchers in general, simply arguing that there are cheaper ways to accomplish the same result

Waywatchers can deploy as close as they like.

Yeah, 2 hand weapons and WS4 puts them at just above average when it comes time to hit something, but you have to hope that when you're done hitting there isn't anything left to hit back. Even peasants have a good chance to hit you, and you are still a T3 elf with no armor. I have, due to some very unlucky rolls, had an entire unit of waywatchers, taken down by a trebuchet crew in the past. It's not pretty.

And I've had a unit of waywatchers destroy an entire block of Saurus spearmen. I think the odds of being killed off by peasant crewmen are pretty low.

I had my waywatchers go on a suicide run against a grey seer last weekend. They caused 3 wounds, unfortunately he passed every 4+ ward save but the potential was there. I thought it was worth the risk. They were going to die anyway.

1. Scouts are still better at march blocking, as they can be made to march block 12" instead of the normal range

They still cannot march block on the first turn.

2. In this case, would these qualify as "throw away" waywatchers as discussed at the beginning of the topic? To me, this is using waywatchers the way they should be used, not needlessly throwing them in harm's way before the game gets rolling.

Well they did die brutally but not after holding him up for some time. I eventually accepted a charge so that they would march block for another turn. I threw them away for a few turns of march blocking. Well worth it to me.




I think waywatchers are underestimated. People see the killing blow and think that is their greatest asset.

I would take a unit of 5 waywatchers over 5 scouts with the zenith banner everytime.

 

You have some valid points, but I must say that as much as some crazy die rolls have to take place for waywatchers to be killed by peasants, the saurus unit you killed must have been victim to some pretty horrendous rolls as well. I guess it mostly depends on how large the unit of waywatchers was.

This thread keeps trying to turn into a "which are better - waywatchers or scouts?" discussion, and that wasn't the OP's question. The question was "are throw-away waywatchers wasteful"

So in an effort to bring this back to the original point, lets begin by agreeing upon a couple of terms:

1. Throw-Away: Based upon the original post, this should be understood to mean a unit deployed under threat of severe casualties or to be quickly destroyed with the intent of saving the larger force.

2. Wasteful: Not worth its points cost, or performing a task which could be as easily performed by a unit costing less points.

With the example given in the original post, we have a unit of waywatchers deployed to provoke and accept a fanatic charge in order to draw out the fanatics early (i.e. before they can cause damage to more essential units). To the question of "is this wasteful?" the answer appears to be a conditional yes.

• The waywatchers can be deployed in woods and still provoke the fanatics to release. In this case, the question is less relevant - the waywatchers are no longer in a "throw-away" position, but rather are being deployed more strategically and more inline with their basic strengths.
• If the waywatchers are deployed in the open but within range to provoke fanatics (someone tell me if this is possible - I don't have the O&G book), then I would consider this to be wasteful. Waywatchers are an expensive and potent unit, and there are other units available who can perform this same function.

I guess my thought on the matter is this - given how often Wood Elf armies are outnumbered and must rely on combining all available strengths to succeed, I would consider very few of our units to be "disposable". The only unit I would even begin to consider in this role is the Great Eagle - low points cost and not a crippling loss to the army if he gets squished.

My love for Waywatchers is well-documented in other threads, and DotR here has given me a few more things to consider with them. So assuming he is correct and Waywatchers are more formidable in CC than I have seen, combined with their other special rules, would make me even less inclined to consider them a "throw away" unit.

 

the saurus unit you killed must have been victim to some pretty horrendous rolls as well.

Well it was on the side of luck but not too lucky. 12 attacks, 9 hit and against T4, 3 should have wounded. I think I got 5 wounds and no attacks back since it was a rear attack. I won combat with a score of 7-4. Lucky for sure, but against normal toughness troops that would've been the average.

(someone tell me if this is possible - I don't have the O&G book)

This is not possible, waywatchers need to be 12" away if out in the open.

I actually consider everything we have except characters, big blocks of EG and treemen to be expendable. In my current army if my characters and EG survive I still have over 1000pts on the table which is usually enough to win.

 

This is not possible, waywatchers need to be 12" away if out in the open.

To clarify this, fanatics are unleashed when an enemy unit comes within 8" of the parent unit.

People are bandying about loads of different points, most of them very valid, but it seems to me that we're split on the answer to the question which was asked ("Are 'throw-away' WW useful?"). What it comes down to is how you play. I'd say WW are too valuable a unit to spend a Rare choice on, if you just want to throw them away.

Personally (as an O&G player myself, when I'm not playing WE), fanatics are less than useful. at 25 points each, they have the potential to to lots of damage for their points cost. The trouble with them is that there is too much chance that they won't. They scatter a random distance, and can do as much harm as good. They can even kill themselves. Playing against O&G, what I generally do is shoot like hell at Night Goblin units because if they panic and flee, any unreleased fanatics are destroyed. I reckon you'd be better off going for this option than trying to draw them out.

It works for me.

GS

 

From my "playtesting", Wardancers can make short work of basically everything (ie, give a unit of 8 a couple of turns and don't be suprised if they destroy a target unit single-handedly) even from the front, since they can dish out so many wounds (provided they get the charge). Now, imagine 3D6 S5 hits on them. That should and probably will destroy them. Waywatchers are less useful for destroying guys.

I see this is a very divided opinion. Perhaps a kind Mod could add a poll for this (if that's possible) thread in order to gain a bit more of a solid opinion.

GS, I don't think Fanatics die if a Gobbo unit carrying them flees.

So, if I can sneak a forest behind his guys, there's no question about it. Place the WW's in the forest, and he has a very bad dilemma.

-AFG

 

GS, I don't think Fanatics die if a Gobbo unit carrying them flees.

They do. I play O&G and have the book. This isn't speculation, it's fact. :yes:

Your WD point is kind of valid, but fanatics have to hit first. If you unleash 3 fanatics, most of the time only one of them will hit (on average). To be honest I don't think fanatics are too much of a problem. You can shoot them to shreds with WE, either before or after they're released.

GS

 

I'm gonna chime in here with two answers.

Generally= No. It's a waste of points, and other people have pointed out everything I'd say about how to do what you want to do in other ways using WEs.

Although I admit I'm no warwatcher fan in this edition. They use to be my favorite unit in the book, now not 1, not 2, but 4 differant units have surpassed them. So some bias exists on my part.


Specifically= It depends. The ultimate question is if you do this tactic with them, using them mainly just to release the fanatic, can you save more points then you'd otherwise lose? Also can you do so in a way using terrain to save them? Can you do so and save yourself more points in losing them then the damage the fanatics would cause later?


So really your answers boil down to
Yes it could work
No it's probably not the best way to do what you want


I will kick out one option I don't think I saw. You could take as a Rare a DoW: Light Cav choice couldn't you? If you've got to lose a unit and a rare choice, that comes out cheaper then the Waywatchers. MSU with a musician comes out like 20% cheaper I believe. Also as DoW choices go it's one of the more fluffy you could take in a WE army. Fairly in tune with animals, mercs are often the prefered unit for scuicide missions in all armies and that's what this is, and lets face it WE wouldn't have a real problem paying some humans do essentially die in the place of WEs... especially elite WE woodsman it takes centuries to train. In their eyes WE = valuable, Humans = expendable.

(shh... just don't tell the Brets)

 

if your using them to take fanatics away....why not just take scouts? much cheaper (its not like you actually have to give them a banner) and won't waste a rare slot. remember these are goblins! shooting waywatchers at goblins is slightly on the wasteful side. You kill 6 a turn, if your lucky, which is very lucky, but theres still like 20 or more left! I'd just take 1 or 2 units of 5 scouts to make an effective, cheap march block and draw those fanatics into some trees....personally

 

I find that when I use them they tend to wreak havock amongst the enemy, or do nothing. So no matter how they are used they are a gamble. I doubt I would use them as bait for fanatics however, there's just so many more thing they could be doing better. But they are still assentialy 'throw away' units as they havn't gotten themselves killed by the end of the battle then they probbaly havn't done anything.

 

Any unit can be a throw away unit if your using it to achieve an objective.

I've thrown away treemen to get the enemy into a postion in which I could outmanouvere them.

So on the question of "are throw away waywatcher wasteful?"

No, if they achieve an objective that enhances you overall battleplan.

 

I went with option #3.

Every unit has to be sacrificed some time or other, and a small squad of Waywatchers holding up a unit of Chosen Chaos Knights for 3 extra turns is an excellent use. However, being wood elves, all risks must be minimalized in an attempt to save all our precious brethren. Keep the Waywatchers as a threat and annoyance, but not putting them in danger should be considered an art amongst Wood Elf Generals.

 

Every unit has to be sacrificed some time or other, and a small squad of Waywatchers holding up a unit of Chosen Chaos Knights for 3 extra turns is an excellent use.

In what world does that happen?

 

Threads merged. Let the voting commence!


EDIT: 1 Vote already? I demand a recount!

 

However, being wood elves, all risks must be minimalized in an attempt to save all our precious brethren.

I like to throw away units.

In the case of fanatics I don't think it would be worthwhile but I have no qualms about losing all of my soft units.

If my characters and the core of my fighting force (usually EG or a treeman) are still alive at the end of the game I tend to have over 1000 pts left which is enough.

I consider glade riders, dryads, wardancers, warhawk riders, great eagles and waywatchers to be expendable.

Characters, Eternal Guard, Treekin, Wild Riders and Treemen aren't.

Glade Guard can be either. Sometimes I retreat them to grab table quarters and sometimes I have them march up to screen my units and get in some S4 shots.

 

Here's one way to look at it:

Here are the cheapest non-hero units in the WE army in ascending order of point cost:

1. eagle
2. Glade Guard Scouts
3. minimum-sized Wardancers
4. Minimum-sized Dryads
5. minimum-sized Glade Guard, Glade Riders, Warhawks Riders, Eternal Guard, Waywatchers
6. minimum-sized Wild Riders
7. Treekin
8. Treeman

So Waywatchers are a fifth most expensive unit. Personally, I don't mind throwing away 120 points most of the time. My GG flee charges all the time, and my Warhawks always risk devestation on their kamikaze hit-and-runs. So on point value, no I wouldn't mind losing WW's if it meant gaining some clear objective.

If it meant triggering something like a fanatic, I wouldn't do it if I could achieve the same goal by other, cheaper means.

Maybe a better question is when do you "throw away" any WE unit? Would you throw away Wardancers or Dryads?

 

Maybe a better question is when do you "throw away" any WE unit? Would you throw away Wardancers or Dryads?

In a heartbeat. :yes:

 

That's a good point, well put DavidVC04 (+rep).

I personally feel that Wood Elves shouldn't need to deliberately sacrifice any units to achieve objectives. The key word here being "deliberately". Warhammer is a game of war after all, though, and casualties happen. Simple as that. I always try to avoid unnecessary deaths if possible, but sometimes valuable units end up in the firing line and you have to make some tough decisions.

If there's anything which I do put in harm's way for the sake of protecting other units, it's Dryads because they have a better chance of survival.

GS

 

I would only throw away an eagle. All other units have a better potential of earning their point cost back. 2 Eagle should be enough to pull out most fantatics. Then focus your shooting on the units that you couldn't pull out. By using the advatages that WE have over the Goblins in shooting you shouldn't have a problem.

 

Regained Interest

I took Waywatchers today for the first time in a while. They deployed under the cover of woods about 3" away from the enemy's far flank, the one to my right. I won first turn and immediately eliminated a skink priest and the charged the skink pack the priest failed to join on the next turn. The skinks put up a tough resistance but went down to the WWs' superior Weapon Skill, number of attacks, and, surprisingly, strength.

After slaying the last skinks, the WWs dropped a single saurus before becoming terrified of the enemy's carnosaur and promptly running off the nearest table edge.

They cost a lot of points but they did their job very well this game. They immediately march-blocked the enemy, killed an enemy priest, slew some skinks and a saurus, and distracted the enemy's Old Blood riding a Carnosaur.

I remember thinking to myself before I chose to have the WWs charge the skinks on turn 2, Would I be better off shooting skinks or fighting them? I'm too close to suffer a Stand & Shoot penalty, Am I throwing these guys away?

But then I thought, What the hell. It's a game, and I want my guys to fight.

Even though I lost the WWs, they earned back their points, not just in kills but in affecting the opponent's game plan from turn 1.

I suppose I always expect my WWs to die. Any unit that pops up in the enemy's rear or flank deployment zone should expect a lot of violent attention from the foe.

So in some way, WWs are a throwaway unit--I just don't want to toss them out the car window too soon. They need to accomplish something important and hopefully over the course of a few turns.

Now am I going to throw them in the path of an oncoming locomotive, like a Night Goblin Fanatic? Probably not, but I'm certainly going to force them into risky situations. Otherwise, what's the point?

Usually, I rail against Waywatchers and how futile they've been, but I think I just hadn't learned to use them properly. They need an immediate and a long-term plan, or at least intention. If throwing them away on the first turn would achieve something game-altering, then yes, I'll risk it. Otherwise, I'll bide my time, disrupting the enemy the best I can with them, expecting them to die in the end.