Hi, one of my friends, who plays Dwarfs, wants to make a Gyrocopter based off of a triplane. Now he really wants to make the plane and pilot based off of the Red Baron, and to this end, he's considering using an Iron Cross on the side of the plane. Since he doesn't have an LO account, he wants me to post this: Do you think this would be acceptable, or, like the swastika, is it going to offend somebody?
Iron Cross?
catbarf
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I understand. I'm not trying to insult people, but I take things for what they are. And I'm not going to place a Hitler arm band on my army anytime soon. If I did, it would be guard, and I wouldn't be crossing any lines. I just want to try and bring it back really. And if they get mad, well that's not my problem.
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If they get mad, just tell them that if they ever play black templars, they are hypocrites. Seeing as how that is their symbol (basically, maltes, iron, same dif).
-The God of all Machines
-The God of all Machines
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the general consensus was that maltese crosses are ok, and swastikas definitely not, a sentiment i agree with
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Which is a sad fact. Damn you hitler! Why did you have to defile such a cool symbol!
I mean come on...either conqeur the world...or don't even try.
-The God of all Machines
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personally i wouldnt use the teutonic cross on a gyrocopter, but not because of any historic connotation, but because its not very dwarf-like, its more Empire, in fact the Empire knights use a very similar cross design
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Hey, its just one model, its for a theme, just as long as he doesn't go overboard with it.
...That being said, i wouldn't recommend taking it to Israel. :|
...That being said, i wouldn't recommend taking it to Israel. :|
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People seem to be getting confused over this. the maltese cross and the swastika are two completely seperate images.
THe 'iron cross' is the medal the maltese cross is the shape. its used everywhere in GW products so is fine.
The swastika was not only used by hindus but was a symbold used by many germanic tribes, lok at and early anglo saxon pottery and youll come across it eventually. If used in an army of people wit black uniforms and red armbands thats too far, i only a NAzi symbol when on a white background surrounded by red IMO other than that it isnt that bad. In a guard army id be iffy though if someone turned up with a guard ary in black uniforms with red armbands and had an imperial eagle in the centre noone would care. if an army based on the anglosaxons was built using dwarfs etc then use of the swastika where appropriate would be fine. anyone who looks at an army and sees the odd swastika with no other nazi conotations and says you are an evil anti-semite is being a bit too judgemental. Saying that there is enough symbols and imagery in many armies that GW do to not need a swastika.
Basically there is nowhere really that there is need to use the swastika, the maltese cross on the other hand go for it. With the ridiculous amount of guard armies based on WW2 germans i dont thing a gyrocopter with a maltese cross is going to cause any offence.
People are also getting hidiously mixed up with the two wars. WW1 had nothing whatsoever to do wiht NAzis in the slightest. Redbaron, triplanes WW1 nazi's WW2.
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THe 'iron cross' is the medal the maltese cross is the shape. its used everywhere in GW products so is fine.
The swastika was not only used by hindus but was a symbold used by many germanic tribes, lok at and early anglo saxon pottery and youll come across it eventually. If used in an army of people wit black uniforms and red armbands thats too far, i only a NAzi symbol when on a white background surrounded by red IMO other than that it isnt that bad. In a guard army id be iffy though if someone turned up with a guard ary in black uniforms with red armbands and had an imperial eagle in the centre noone would care. if an army based on the anglosaxons was built using dwarfs etc then use of the swastika where appropriate would be fine. anyone who looks at an army and sees the odd swastika with no other nazi conotations and says you are an evil anti-semite is being a bit too judgemental. Saying that there is enough symbols and imagery in many armies that GW do to not need a swastika.
Basically there is nowhere really that there is need to use the swastika, the maltese cross on the other hand go for it. With the ridiculous amount of guard armies based on WW2 germans i dont thing a gyrocopter with a maltese cross is going to cause any offence.
People are also getting hidiously mixed up with the two wars. WW1 had nothing whatsoever to do wiht NAzis in the slightest. Redbaron, triplanes WW1 nazi's WW2.
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It's funny how many ppl think that the nazis were in WWI...
Ahhh! Must Make one more post!
-The God of all Machines
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I'm constantly amazed at the amount of people who think Nazi = German !
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The symbol of a cross found on German vehicles is the Balkan Cross or Balkankreuz, not the maltese cross! Gosh!
You don't want to offend the Maltese...they are tuff little buggers...
Use any any symbols you want, if people choose to be offended they have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
If I have to suffer the christian cross and that stupid fish in silence....I digress....
Everybody's ancestors got thumped by someone...get over it!
A symbol does not an ideology make.
You don't want to offend the Maltese...they are tuff little buggers...
Use any any symbols you want, if people choose to be offended they have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
If I have to suffer the christian cross and that stupid fish in silence....I digress....
Everybody's ancestors got thumped by someone...get over it!
A symbol does not an ideology make.
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It might not "make" the ideology but it might well communicate it.
Reminds me of when Simba gets hit in the head by Rafiki (The LionKing) and Rafiki says it's history so he should not let it bother him...
To use the word "ancestor" makes it feel like if it was back in ancient times this happened but it's what, 60 years ago? I thought one used the word for people who lived way back, not grandparents and such.
"What are you doing this weekend?"
"I'm going to my ancestors for dinner."
Anyway, the question asked by Catbarf's friend was if people might be offended by it and clearly some people would.
Sure you can say, he should play the selfrigteous un-empathic game and just tell them to get over it, since he really doesn't care about someones relatives and/or grandparents being killed. Tell them to accept that this sybol is just a few lines arranged in a cool way, it has no other meaning...
One can even start saying that about words. It's just a few letters put together, I cannot be held responsible if someone thinks they actually mean something. Everybody has been told stuff about their mom..
Mine didn't. At least not the ones I've ever met and here in lies the difference. If my grandmother would have been locked away for years, suffering in a deathcamp by an organisation that still exsists and someone came waving their symbol around for thinking it is "cool" and that person then told me to "get over it". Not really sure how I'd react, though I know I would feel offended.
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1 of my grandfather was sent to norway for forced labor and my other grandfather had to go in hiding not to get deported as well. My grandmothers then both had to right a bike with wooden wheels 100 miles to find food. 1 already had 2 children at this point.
Not to mention what would have happend had they been jewish.
My grandparents never hated the germans. But the swastika is the symbol for the regime who did this.
Not to mention what would have happend had they been jewish.
My grandparents never hated the germans. But the swastika is the symbol for the regime who did this.
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here here.
Its the swastika that shouldnt be used, the 'balkan' cross is the symbol of many people who were not Nazi's.
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PS: Killer Clown have you got any info about this Balkan cross im just quite interested in the symbol and how far it goes back!
Its the swastika that shouldnt be used, the 'balkan' cross is the symbol of many people who were not Nazi's.
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PS: Killer Clown have you got any info about this Balkan cross im just quite interested in the symbol and how far it goes back!
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I think a lot of these crosses come from medieval military orders - the Maltese cross is the cross of the Knights of St John (the Knight's Hospitallers) who had a base on the island. I'm pretty sure the German iron cross is the symbol of the Teutonic Knights who were based in Germany (I'm sure i read somewhere that their headquarters was actually called Marienburg!)
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Makes perfect sense really. Though the teutonic knights were an evil bunch. Ive found the cross design on several brooches from antiquity so was wondering if it went way back well thats somehting for me to investigate i spose...
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AH! Never put a swastika on your models! That's horrible!
I played in a tournament once where a guy from out of town brought a Nazi Imperial Guard army. We played in the center of a mall, and when I showed up the next day for finals the guy had bruises and a broken nose! Some kids had jumped him on his way out the day before. It's so awful, please don't do that for some kind of flash, it's not impressive to anyone.
I played in a tournament once where a guy from out of town brought a Nazi Imperial Guard army. We played in the center of a mall, and when I showed up the next day for finals the guy had bruises and a broken nose! Some kids had jumped him on his way out the day before. It's so awful, please don't do that for some kind of flash, it's not impressive to anyone.
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If anyone produced a Nazi-themed IG army at my club or any tournament I attended, I'm sure they would understand why I stamped it to splinters in front of them.
Remember, the Nazis and the ideals they stood for are still a threat and a symbol of oppression to many many people in this day and age. A good friend of mine (a immigrant from Eastern Europe who is now an accomplished teacher) has been deliberately intimidated by having swastikas sprayed on her front door. Trying to excuse displaying the swastika by drawing comparisons to 'The Spanish Inquisition' or other politically extinct movements is just spin. So is 'trying to reclaim the swastika for its hindu meaning' - thats just stupid, or worse - stupid AND evil. It is NOT up to other people to 'get over it' when they see someone apparently glorifying the most evil regime in the last century. In many parts of Europe it is still illegal (and rightfully so IMHO) to display the swastika.
The Balken cross, also I believe known as the Latin cross, is okay however in small doses. It is not specifically associated with the Nazis.
Remember, the Nazis and the ideals they stood for are still a threat and a symbol of oppression to many many people in this day and age. A good friend of mine (a immigrant from Eastern Europe who is now an accomplished teacher) has been deliberately intimidated by having swastikas sprayed on her front door. Trying to excuse displaying the swastika by drawing comparisons to 'The Spanish Inquisition' or other politically extinct movements is just spin. So is 'trying to reclaim the swastika for its hindu meaning' - thats just stupid, or worse - stupid AND evil. It is NOT up to other people to 'get over it' when they see someone apparently glorifying the most evil regime in the last century. In many parts of Europe it is still illegal (and rightfully so IMHO) to display the swastika.
The Balken cross, also I believe known as the Latin cross, is okay however in small doses. It is not specifically associated with the Nazis.
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It is because people have an excessive, hysterical and disproportionate reaction to such things that people use it.
To say you would smash someones' army because of a symbol is just espousing what you claim to despise.
From the use of a symbol to 'apparent glorification' is 'drawing a long bow'.
Evil is a relative and emotive term.
Judge people by their actions not by the reactions you have to a symbol.
Stalin was arguably way more 'evil' than Hitler and my Uncle fled Poland in fear of his life due to Stalin's regime, therefore I will smash all red armies I come across? :shifty: hmmm...
Symbols are only powerful if empowered, they are not evil, people are evil.
Though that is a whole other discussion that I would be happy to have by PM.
All right, now get emotive and excessive and call me a Nazi, I will be happy to correct you
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