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Jump Pack Model + Transport?

6.8K views 41 replies 11 participants last post by  Caluin  
#1 ·
Is there any rule that says a jump pack model may not get in a transport (like a Chaplain with a jump pack)?
 
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#2 ·
magnet_man said:
Is there any rule that says a jump pack model may not get in a transport (like a Chaplain with a jump pack)?
There used to be a direct reference to Marines with jump packs not being able to use transports, but it is not in the new codex, the thing is though that jump pack marines have no access to transports in its codex entry, so any character joining them (chaplain) would not have access to a transport.
The thing is though if a jump pack equiped Chaplain joined a normal Marine tactical unit its movement is restricted to the speed of the slowest member of the unit (6"), if this allows access to a transport is a different matter and one I have no clear answer to, the fact that jump pack equiped Marines have no access to transports would indicate the answer is in fact no; but I suppose this is open to argument because the Chaplain has had his movement restricted due to joining the tacical unit.
Another thing is the entries for Rhino's, Razorbacks, Landraiders and Crusaders specify Space Marines in power armour or terminators, no reference is made to jump packs which I believe refuses any model with a jumpack the option of using a transport.
 
#4 ·
I do not think Jump Infantry would be able to use a transport.

1.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under 'Jump Infantry' mentions no special restrictions to using transports.

2.) However, pg. 62 of the BGB under 'Passenger Capacity' states that: 'Only Infantry may embark in transports unless the transporting vehicle's rules state otherwise.'

3.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under Jump Infantry states that: 'This unit type behaves differently on the battlefield than a normal infantry unit .'

Therefore, 'Jump Infantry' are not the same as 'Infantry', and thus, cannot use a transport unless stated otherwise in the transporting vehicle's rules.


-However-

I do not think an IC equipped with a jump pack is in fact 'Jump Infantry.' The Codex: Space Marines entry for Jump Packs in the armoury (page 24) states that: 'Models equipped with jump packs move as jump infantry.'

Therefore, the only thing affected is their movement, not their restrictions on transports.

I would have no problem if I faced an opponent who did this (although, I must ask, why would you?) however, if I tried to do this, I would explain my case to my opponent and judge by his reaction whether or not I should be allowed to.
 
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#5 ·
Astantia said:
I do not think Jump Infantry would be able to use a transport.

1.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under 'Jump Infantry' mentions no special restrictions to using transports.

2.) However, pg. 62 of the BGB under 'Passenger Capacity' states that: 'Only Infantry may embark in transports unless the transporting vehicle's rules state otherwise.'

3.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under Jump Infantry states that: 'This unit type behaves differently on the battlefield than a normal infantry unit .'

Therefore, 'Jump Infantry' are not the same as 'Infantry', and thus, cannot use a transport unless stated otherwise in the transporting vehicle's rules.


-However-

I do not think an IC equipped with a jump pack is in fact 'Jump Infantry.' The Codex: Space Marines entry for Jump Packs in the armoury (page 24) states that: 'Models equipped with jump packs move as jump infantry.'

Therefore, the only thing affected is their movement, not their restrictions on transports.

I would have no problem if I faced an opponent who did this (although, I must ask, why would you?) however, if I tried to do this, I would explain my case to my opponent and judge by his reaction whether or not I should be allowed to.
No the movement phase defines all units movement, so the only way a jump pack equipped unit can move in a movement phase is as jump infantry, either 12" jump pack move or a normal 6" move, jump infantry has no option to take a transport in the movement phase and chaplains with a jump pack are classed as jump infantry for movement purposes within the movement phase.

Thats why it says 'move as jump infantry' jump infantry cannot MOVE in a vehicle thats the restriction on transports, its the movement phase that is important because the jump pack only affects the movement phase, the assault phase is carried out on foot as infantry.

A vehicle is used in the movement phase and a Chaplain with jump pack moves as jump infantry within the movement phase.

You actually answered my question about the Chaplain joining an infantry unit, because he still has the jump pack he can move 6" (which is what he would have to do to match the Marine squads movement rate) but is still classed as jump infantry, in fact the Chaplain would stop the Marine tactical squad from utilising a transport.

The reason for taking Marines or characters with jump packs in transports is this, put a 9 man squad and a chaplian with jump packs in a rhino, you move the rhino 12" and the unit is protected, next turn the unit disembarks it can move 12" and assault if in range, so you have moved your marines up the field nicely protected and with an 18" deployment, 12" protected move, 12" jump move thats 38" inches of a normal board covered and all in safety.
Quite an advantage for the Marines (a turn in a vehicles better than being exposed).
Thats why jump pack troops cannot take transports, and if the board is bigger the player would just keep the marines inside the transport for a few turns which again is a massive advantage for the expensive marines because of the protection offered by the vehicle.

Now I would have a problem with that, wouldn't you, that jump pack offers a nice 12" move when they leave a vehicle and the vehicle offers protection, to powerful a combination for me.
 
#6 ·
riki, as far as I can tell this has nothing with "having a problem with something" but instead going to figure out what can and can't be done with the rules. ;)

GW has a habit of wording things poorly. It's safe to assume, though, that what they meant was that things equipped with Jump Packs and equivalents can't be inside transports. I'm sure we can all agree on that, regardless of the poor wording in both codex and rulebook. We've dealth with GW long enough to realise this. :yes:



 
#7 ·
Therefore, 'Jump Infantry' are not the same as 'Infantry', and thus, cannot use a transport unless stated otherwise in the transporting vehicle's rules.
Good analysis, but flawed. For instance, Cavalry is not the same as Infantry, yet may still use a Transport in some instances.

This is one of those "You know it was intended to be this way, so just because we didn't specifically state it anywhere, try to use common sense and play it that way, please" things that GW likes to sneak into their books. It's a bad business practice IMO, but something that the creators of 40K probably won't ever change.
 
#8 ·
Lost Nemesis said:
riki, as far as I can tell this has nothing with "having a problem with something" but instead going to figure out what can and can't be done with the rules. ;)

GW has a habit of wording things poorly. It's safe to assume, though, that what they meant was that things equipped with Jump Packs and equivalents can't be inside transports. I'm sure we can all agree on that, regardless of the poor wording in both codex and rulebook. We've dealth with GW long enough to realise this. :yes:
Lost I was directly referring to Astantia saying she would have no problem with someone using a Chaplain in a transport and showing how it can be abused. I am also showing what can and cannot be done with the rules, but I am also showing how the rules can be used to gain an unfair unintended advantage which Astantia seemed to have missed.

Cal your missing the one important thing here, the movement phase, yes a cavalry unit can use a transport in some instances because they move as infantry in the movement phase but have the option to fleet, obviously if they are in a transport they do not fleet. They are classed as infantry, jump pack equipped units are not classed as infantry for the purposes of movement, so they canot use a transport because in the movement phase they are not classed as infantry they are jump infantry.

So in effect Astantia is correct, though the details needed clarifying.

Anyway I think we have all agreed its a case of unclear rules AGAIN.
 
#9 ·
rikimaru said:
[Beasts and Cavalry] are classed as infantry, jump pack equipped units are not classed as infantry for the purposes of movement, so they canot use a transport because in the movement phase they are not classed as infantry they are jump infantry.
No, they're not infantry. Check page 8 and 9 of the BGB. You'll see that they're two completely different things. This is why Beasts/Cavalry don't deploy in Escalation missions.

And what if I elected to simply move my Jump Infantry as normal infantry during the movement phase? Would he then be allowed to embark the transport?

The phase doesn't mean anything. For instance, Jet Packs move only six inches in the Movement phase, yet shouldn't be/aren't allowed to be transported.
 
#10 ·
Caluin said:
The phase doesn't mean anything. For instance, Jet Packs move only six inches in the Movement phase, yet shouldn't be/aren't allowed to be transported.
This is true, though that's mainly because nothing in the Tau army with a Jetpack has access to a transport... not like, for example, a Land Raider, or a Falcon Grav-tank, both of which are not dedicated transports. :yes:



 
#11 ·
Caluin said:
"...try to use common sense..."
Wasn't there a "Word in Your Ear" recently about the perils of this so-called common sense?

I personally think an IC with a jump pack could travel with a Tac squad in a transport. Why not? If Termies can travel in a Land Raider, why can't Jump Packs? Certainly not because they are too bulky...
 
#12 ·
just so you know the rule is that no modle that has the jump troops or jump infantry rule which allows them to jump 12" can not use a transport unless there is a specific rule that allows it. it is because they are to bulky and because they are carrying a large pack of jet fule on their back plus i dont think fire and closed spaces mix very well
 
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#13 ·
Can you please cite a page number to support your assertation. Just b/c they have jump packs does not mean they use them to jump out of a vehicle and as pointed out earlier, terminators fit in transports and they are supposed to be larger (hence the larger base).
 
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#14 ·
read the jump infantry section in the rule book then read who can use a transport vehicle on pg 62 of the big book then read passenger capacity on the same page it clearly states that only infantry may embark unless the transporting vehicles rules specify otherwise.
 
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#15 ·
Caluin said:
No, they're not infantry. Check page 8 and 9 of the BGB. You'll see that they're two completely different things. This is why Beasts/Cavalry don't deploy in Escalation missions.

And what if I elected to simply move my Jump Infantry as normal infantry during the movement phase? Would he then be allowed to embark the transport?

The phase doesn't mean anything. For instance, Jet Packs move only six inches in the Movement phase, yet shouldn't be/aren't allowed to be transported.
Anything that has a jump pack is classed as JUMP infantry they even have there own unit classification and jump infantry in the space marine codex cannot take a transport, they have no transport option, so that means no transport of any kind, just because they can elect to move like normal infantry (but like is not the same as being).

If any model takes a jump pack it counts as jump infantry for movement purposes, so yes a chaplain is still a chaplain, its still an IC for targeting and CC purposes etc, but for movement purposes its jump infantry.

Of course the phase means something, they define the whole game, even the jump infantry entry on page 55 of the BGB says 'The exact changes are detailed below' divided between the different phases', the BGB also says jump infantry can move 12" in the MOVEMENT phase and move as infantry in the ASSUALT phase, another distinction has been made between phases, of course the phase matters.

You can move as far as you want to in the movement phase up to the maximum distance allowed, you can move 1" if you so desire, movement distance means one thing for jump packs, you can choose to move up to 12" if you want.
If you want to move on foot it does not matter because your still classed as jump infantry because your wearing a bloody huge jump pack, your jump infantry because you have the option to use the jump pack, but if you elect to walk you move 6". So no just because he choses to walk the same as infantry does not mean your infantry, I mean I walk like a chinese man, hence I must be chinese if you follow that assumption.
 
#18 ·
rikimaru said:
Anything that has a jump pack is classed as JUMP infantry they even have there own unit classification and jump infantry in the space marine codex cannot take a transport, they have no transport option, so that means no transport of any kind, just because they can elect to move like normal infantry (but like is not the same as being).

If any model takes a jump pack it counts as jump infantry for movement purposes, so yes a chaplain is still a chaplain, its still an IC for targeting and CC purposes etc, but for movement purposes its jump infantry.

Of course the phase means something, they define the whole game, even the jump infantry entry on page 55 of the BGB says 'The exact changes are detailed below' divided between the different phases', the BGB also says jump infantry can move 12" in the MOVEMENT phase and move as infantry in the ASSUALT phase, another distinction has been made between phases, of course the phase matters.

You can move as far as you want to in the movement phase up to the maximum distance allowed, you can move 1" if you so desire, movement distance means one thing for jump packs, you can choose to move up to 12" if you want.
If you want to move on foot it does not matter because your still classed as jump infantry because your wearing a bloody huge jump pack, your jump infantry because you have the option to use the jump pack, but if you elect to walk you move 6". So no just because he choses to walk the same as infantry does not mean your infantry, I mean I walk like a chinese man, hence I must be chinese if you follow that assumption.
That's pretty thin IMHO, the section on pg55 leads to the opposite conclusion, it says "the exact changes [from a normal infantry unit] are detailed below", which is essentially a statement that jump _infantry_ are a subset of _infantry_. It then states in the movement section, after listing their special movement, "This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish". This statement is not purely equivalent to "you can elect to walk", or even "you can move 1" or 12"", it also underscores the point that "jump infantry are are proper subset of infantry, in that they are infantry with some extra rules, which are 'exactly detailed' in this section".

While I agree that Assault Squad members cannot ride in a transport as they do not have a transport option, an IC with a jump pack who is attached to a squad is still an IC and therefore falls under the blanket exclusion for ICs. Now, if there was a specific exception called out for SM Jump Infantry (like the explicit one for all Terminators on pg 62 of the standard rule book), I'd agree, but there isn't one that I've been able to find.

The plea to common sense at the end of your post isn't meaningful as common sense isn't necessarily applicable to the game (for a better explanation of this see WD315's Word in Your Ear).

While I personally agree that it is a potentially cheesy for the right list (though I'm not really clear how this would work, maybe some strange Blood Angels list?), it's allowed by the rules.
 
#19 ·
HerrSprengstoff said:
That's pretty thin IMHO, the section on pg55 leads to the opposite conclusion, it says "the exact changes [from a normal infantry unit] are detailed below", which is essentially a statement that jump _infantry_ are a subset of _infantry_. It then states in the movement section, after listing their special movement, "This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish". This statement is not purely equivalent to "you can elect to walk", or even "you can move 1" or 12"", it also underscores the point that "jump infantry are are proper subset of infantry, in that they are infantry with some extra rules, which are 'exactly detailed' in this section".

While I agree that Assault Squad members cannot ride in a transport as they do not have a transport option, an IC with a jump pack who is attached to a squad is still an IC and therefore falls under the blanket exclusion for ICs. Now, if there was a specific exception called out for SM Jump Infantry (like the explicit one for all Terminators on pg 62 of the standard rule book), I'd agree, but there isn't one that I've been able to find.

The plea to common sense at the end of your post isn't meaningful as common sense isn't necessarily applicable to the game (for a better explanation of this see WD315's Word in Your Ear).

While I personally agree that it is a potentially cheesy for the right list (though I'm not really clear how this would work, maybe some strange Blood Angels list?), it's allowed by the rules.
No jump infantry is a seperate unit type, just like infantry, vehicles etc, they have there own set of rules they do not swap between unit types at will. It even states on page 53 'Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry' which means any unit in the unit type rules section of the BGB is NOT infantry

The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).

Your also totaly ignoring the rules for jump packs on page 24, it specifically states, modles equipped with a jump pack move as jump infantry, this means if they take a jump pack they forego all other movement types and transport options within the movement phase, because they are classed as JI for movement purposes.

You cannot ignore the rules for wargear, its like saying a chaplain given terminator armour can ignore the rule for no sweeping advances because he is listed as infantry, the termie armour negates the ability to sweeping advance and the JP negates any use of a vehicle.
According to you your saying that IC status negates any rule that modifies a stat or movement / assault rate and that is just plain wrong, yes the chaplain is still an IC but he still has a jump pack, thats wargear, he cannot just disregard it.

Yes he can move at the same rate as the infantry, but he has no choice because he has to move at the rate of the slowest unit member and the unit cannot use a transport while he is attached because he ahs a jump pack and JP models cannot utilise transports. just because he joins a unit does not mean he loses his unit status and for movement purposes he is JI just like he does not cease to be an IC in the assualt phase.

If the chaplain had termie armour and joined a standard marine unit, the unit would not be able to sweeping advance because the termie armour modifies his stats in the assualt phase and the unit would not be able to use a rhino transport if he was attached would he? even though the Marines can take a rhino.

You cannot ignore rules to suit, the chaplain is jump infantry for movement purposes and cannot take a transport ever.

Anyway I have stated very clearly why a Chaplain or any other character with a jump pack cannot ride in a transport and why JI cannot utilise transports and I will just be repeating myself further, if you or any body else want to ignore clear rules thats up to you, its a free country.
 
#20 ·
rikimaru said:
and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).
Because it's not important. The original question was phrased about Independant Characters who technically don't have transport options, but can join others. Take Scouts for instance - they can't have transports, but that doesn't stop them from mounting up in a Land Raider if one is avaliable.

Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just pointing out why people are ignoring that particular arguement.

One last thing, before I bow out - think about what this might mean for other units as well. If one rules that Jump Infantry can make use of Transports, then what stops Bike Mounted units?
 
#21 ·
No jump infantry is a seperate unit type, just like infantry, vehicles etc, they have there own set of rules they do not swap between unit types at will. It even states on page 53 'Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry' which means any unit in the unit type rules section of the BGB is NOT infantry

I agree.


The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).

I don't think it matters whether or not Assault Marines have a 'transport option.' If they chose to remove jump packs, would they be allowed in a Land Raider? What about Scouts? There is no 'transport option' there for them, but surely they are infantry and thus can go inside a Land Raider, right? Also, you're right it NEVER mentions transports.


Your also totaly ignoring the rules for jump packs on page 24, it specifically states, modles equipped with a jump pack move as jump infantry, this means if they take a jump pack they forego all other movement types and transport options within the movement phase, because they are classed as JI for movement purposes.


Okay, what about when a Chaos Lord buys a Juggernaut of Khorne? They are said to move as Cavalry. That doesn't last only in the movement phase, they get the extra assault phase rules as well, and get the fall back rules also. I think 'move as jump infantry' isn't movement PHASE but whenever the Chaplain moves. Therefore, embarking on a transport is not addressed and is still viable.


You cannot ignore the rules for wargear, its like saying a chaplain given terminator armour can ignore the rule for no sweeping advances because he is listed as infantry, the termie armour negates the ability to sweeping advance and the JP negates any use of a vehicle.
According to you your saying that IC status negates any rule that modifies a stat or movement / assault rate and that is just plain wrong, yes the chaplain is still an IC but he still has a jump pack, thats wargear, he cannot just disregard it.


We are not ignoring wargear rules. On page 25 of Codex: Space Marines under 'Terminator Armour' it staes that (Last sentence, first paragraph) 'Terminators may not sweeping advance.' Right there, in the rules for the wargear listed, it says what the 'Terminator Armour' does. Also on page 24, it lists what the Jump Pack does. It allows them to 'move as Jump Infantry' and it mentions that they have the option to deepstrike.


Yes he can move at the same rate as the infantry, but he has no choice because he has to move at the rate of the slowest unit member and the unit cannot use a transport while he is attached because he ahs a jump pack and JP models cannot utilise transports. just because he joins a unit does not mean he loses his unit status and for movement purposes he is JI just like he does not cease to be an IC in the assualt phase.

Could you tell me the page number of the BGB that states that 'models with a Jump Pack cannot utilize transports'? I know the reference for Jump Infantry, but as I already said, he MOVES as Jump Infantry and actually IS NOT Jump Infantry.


If the chaplain had termie armour and joined a standard marine unit, the unit would not be able to sweeping advance because the termie armour modifies his stats in the assualt phase and the unit would not be able to use a rhino transport if he was attached would he? even though the Marines can take a rhino.

Both true, because, in the Terminator Armour entry in the Armoury it states that you cannot sweeping advance with it, and in the Rhino entry, it states that the Rhino cannot transport units with Terminator Armour. It does not say that it cannot transport a unit with a jump pack.


You cannot ignore rules to suit, the chaplain is jump infantry for movement purposes and cannot take a transport ever.


1.) true
2.) true
3.) false



Anyway I have stated very clearly why a Chaplain or any other character with a jump pack cannot ride in a transport and why JI cannot utilise transports and I will just be repeating myself further, if you or any body else want to ignore clear rules thats up to you, its a free country.


Nobody is taking rules to suit, and nobody is ignoring 'clear rules' (which, I must say is so precious a commodity in our hobby that anyone who ignores them should be flogged) I am stating that a Jump Pack does not make you jump infantry, and I have given my reasons for it. Both of us have very valid points, however, I believe mine to be correct. I am not flaming, ignoring blatant rules, or trying to cause confusion, I am trying to help someone with a question that they asked. If you could show me in the BGB or in Codex: Space Marines, or in an official FAQ to either that models with a Jump Pack cannot use transports then I will concede my points.

However, I still think an IC with Jump Pack can ride in a transport.
 
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#22 ·
Astantia said:
Okay, what about when a Chaos Lord buys a Juggernaut of Khorne? They are said to move as Cavalry.
Two slight things -

Juggernauts of Khorne don't move as Cavalry - they move as Infantry. Bulky, slow, that kind of thing.

Secondly, the Jugger is a Steed, and Chaos has a rule in their Codex stating that anyone mounted on a Steed can't ride in a Transport.

Carry on.
 
#23 ·
1.) Good point, how about a steed of slaanesh? Move as cavalry, right?

2.) The point was not that they can ride in a transport, but that movement is not necesarily just in the Movement phase.
 
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#24 ·
Astantia said:
No jump infantry is a seperate unit type, just like infantry, vehicles etc, they have there own set of rules they do not swap between unit types at will. It even states on page 53 'Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry' which means any unit in the unit type rules section of the BGB is NOT infantry

I agree.
Then all your other points are irrelevent your agreeing that jump infantry is a seperate unit, and any unit that takes a jump pack moves as jump infantry, jump infantry have no option available to take a transport (even without jump packs, they are still jump infantry the pack does not matter taking it or not does not change their unit type)


Astantia said:
The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).

I don't think it matters whether or not Assault Marines have a 'transport option.' If they chose to remove jump packs, would they be allowed in a Land Raider? What about Scouts? There is no 'transport option' there for them, but surely they are infantry and thus can go inside a Land Raider, right? Also, you're right it NEVER mentions transports.
Oh for gods sake this is just getting silly, of course it matters if they have a transport option thats the whole point of the thread, they DO NOT have a transport option this means they cannot use any transport option.A chaplain can if he is not wearing a jump pack because he is an IC and can join units.
Also read the rules for the movement phase of Characters on page 50, it says and I quote 'Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, be it infantry, JUMP INFANTRY (differentiation between infantry unit types) or beasts/cavalry. If the chaplain takes a jump pack its classed as jump infantry so it follows JI rules for movement.

AS for scouts yes they can use transports because they are indeed infantry, but they can only use non dedicated transports, Assualt Marines cannot because they have no dedicated transport option and are jump infantry not infantry, regardless of whether they take a jump pack or not, they are and always will be jump infantry and thats not infantry.

An IC can use a dedicated transport if its attached to an infantry squad or they are attached to a command squad, they can use a Landraider if they are not JP equiped because they are infantry according to the unit rules on page 8.



Astantia said:

Your also totaly ignoring the rules for jump packs on page 24, it specifically states, modles equipped with a jump pack move as jump infantry, this means if they take a jump pack they forego all other movement types and transport options within the movement phase, because they are classed as JI for movement purposes.


Okay, what about when a Chaos Lord buys a Juggernaut of Khorne? They are said to move as Cavalry. That doesn't last only in the movement phase, they get the extra assault phase rules as well, and get the fall back rules also. I think 'move as jump infantry' isn't movement PHASE but whenever the Chaplain moves. Therefore, embarking on a transport is not addressed and is still viable.
Unit type, beast and cavalry cannot take transports unless its specifically listed that they can, they follow the unit rules for their UNIT TYPE cavalry on page 57 and page 50 as I quoted above, and as I pointed out before Jump infantry have an assault movement specification in the JI rules on page 55, they move 6" .
If a Juggernaut of Khorne is taken the movement and assault rules of the chaos lord are replaced by the rules of the juggernaut, which is exactly what I am saying about the chaplains movement and assualt phases when he has a JP (they are replaced). so whats your point?


Astantia said:
You cannot ignore the rules for wargear, its like saying a chaplain given terminator armour can ignore the rule for no sweeping advances because he is listed as infantry, the termie armour negates the ability to sweeping advance and the JP negates any use of a vehicle.
According to you your saying that IC status negates any rule that modifies a stat or movement / assault rate and that is just plain wrong, yes the chaplain is still an IC but he still has a jump pack, thats wargear, he cannot just disregard it.


We are not ignoring wargear rules. On page 25 of Codex: Space Marines under 'Terminator Armour' it staes that (Last sentence, first paragraph) 'Terminators may not sweeping advance.' Right there, in the rules for the wargear listed, it says what the 'Terminator Armour' does. Also on page 24, it lists what the Jump Pack does. It allows them to 'move as Jump Infantry' and it mentions that they have the option to deepstrike.
Yes I know it says terminators cannot sweeping, it also says any model with a jump pack moves as jump infantry and jump infantry cannot take a transport. It says what jump infantry do on page 55, it says what jump packs do on page 24 of the marine codex.


Astantia said:
Yes he can move at the same rate as the infantry, but he has no choice because he has to move at the rate of the slowest unit member and the unit cannot use a transport while he is attached because he ahs a jump pack and JP models cannot utilise transports. just because he joins a unit does not mean he loses his unit status and for movement purposes he is JI just like he does not cease to be an IC in the assualt phase.

Could you tell me the page number of the BGB that states that 'models with a Jump Pack cannot utilize transports'? I know the reference for Jump Infantry, but as I already said, he MOVES as Jump Infantry and actually IS NOT Jump Infantry.
No one is saying he is jump infantry, what I am saying is his movement (in all phases) is restricted to jump infantry rules, it is very clear
Rule: page 51 Embarking and Disembarking, INFANTRY may not etc etc etc, only two types of unit can use a transport (unless it is specifically stated otherwise in another units codex entry) and those two types are infantry (not jump infantry) and independent characters. it is very clear because they are excluded by that rule. Also check the first line on page 62.


Astantia said:
If the chaplain had termie armour and joined a standard marine unit, the unit would not be able to sweeping advance because the termie armour modifies his stats in the assualt phase and the unit would not be able to use a rhino transport if he was attached would he? even though the Marines can take a rhino.

Both true, because, in the Terminator Armour entry in the Armoury it states that you cannot sweeping advance with it, and in the Rhino entry, it states that the Rhino cannot transport units with Terminator Armour. It does not say that it cannot transport a unit with a jump pack.
I know they are true, it does state that any transport may not transport non infantry units as I detailed above.

Astantia said:
You cannot ignore rules to suit, the chaplain is jump infantry for movement purposes and cannot take a transport ever.[/B]

1.) true
2.) true
3.) false
(1) true
(2) true
(3) true, jump infantry or models who use jump infantry movement rules (chaplain with a jump pack) cannot EVER use a transport.

Astantia said:


Anyway I have stated very clearly why a Chaplain or any other character with a jump pack cannot ride in a transport and why JI cannot utilise transports and I will just be repeating myself further, if you or any body else want to ignore clear rules thats up to you, its a free country.


Nobody is taking rules to suit, and nobody is ignoring 'clear rules' (which, I must say is so precious a commodity in our hobby that anyone who ignores them should be flogged) I am stating that a Jump Pack does not make you jump infantry, and I have given my reasons for it. Both of us have very valid points, however, I believe mine to be correct. I am not flaming, ignoring blatant rules, or trying to cause confusion, I am trying to help someone with a question that they asked. If you could show me in the BGB or in Codex: Space Marines, or in an official FAQ to either that models with a Jump Pack cannot use transports then I will concede my points.

However, I still think an IC with Jump Pack can ride in a transport.
I have never said a jump pack makes you jump infantry, I have said a jump pack for a chaplain means he MUST use the jump pack movement rules (movement and assualt phase) and jump pack units movement phase has no option to utilise a transport. this is clear and has been explained, you have supplied no valid counter to this point.
I have never considered anything you have said a flame, and I hope you will give me the same consideration, any capitalised words are merely for emphasis.

I know I said I would not post again but I could not let some of these points go unanswered

Also one lst thing the entry for Jump infantry on page 8 says 'jump infantry can move as normal creatures on foot or kick in their jump pack to make a high speed move, thus combining some of the best elements of MOUNTED and ordinary infantry' this means they get the 12" movement of mounted infantry, which infers they do not get transports because they dont need it. just another thought (not proof)

Anyway I am done now, these posts are way to long.
 
#25 ·
I concede. Vey good Rikimaru, the only thing that is making me do this is the movement rules for ICs specifically mentioning jump infantry.


Sorry mate, IC's with Jump Packs cannot take transports.
 
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#26 ·
I still think that you can't. First I will adress the point about the IC with jet pack joining a squad of infantry and going in a transport. The space marine codex says that a unit with a jet pack "CAN" move as jet infantry. It doesn't say must and so the IC can choose to move as infantry and so that defeats your weak point that because they move as jump infantry they count as jump infantry for embarking. As such the IC still counts as infantry and so can embark.

Now on the point of a space marine assault squad using a un-dedicated transport.

The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport
At the beggining of the special unit type section it says that unless otherwise stated they follow the normal infantry rules. As you pointed out in the above quote it makes no mention of transports and so they follow normal infantry rules for embarking and disembarking transports, thus allowing them to embark as normal infantry...
 
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