Is there any rule that says a jump pack model may not get in a transport (like a Chaplain with a jump pack)?
There used to be a direct reference to Marines with jump packs not being able to use transports, but it is not in the new codex, the thing is though that jump pack marines have no access to transports in its codex entry, so any character joining them (chaplain) would not have access to a transport.magnet_man said:Is there any rule that says a jump pack model may not get in a transport (like a Chaplain with a jump pack)?
No the movement phase defines all units movement, so the only way a jump pack equipped unit can move in a movement phase is as jump infantry, either 12" jump pack move or a normal 6" move, jump infantry has no option to take a transport in the movement phase and chaplains with a jump pack are classed as jump infantry for movement purposes within the movement phase.Astantia said:I do not think Jump Infantry would be able to use a transport.
1.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under 'Jump Infantry' mentions no special restrictions to using transports.
2.) However, pg. 62 of the BGB under 'Passenger Capacity' states that: 'Only Infantry may embark in transports unless the transporting vehicle's rules state otherwise.'
3.) Pg. 55 of the BGB under Jump Infantry states that: 'This unit type behaves differently on the battlefield than a normal infantry unit .'
Therefore, 'Jump Infantry' are not the same as 'Infantry', and thus, cannot use a transport unless stated otherwise in the transporting vehicle's rules.
-However-
I do not think an IC equipped with a jump pack is in fact 'Jump Infantry.' The Codex: Space Marines entry for Jump Packs in the armoury (page 24) states that: 'Models equipped with jump packs move as jump infantry.'
Therefore, the only thing affected is their movement, not their restrictions on transports.
I would have no problem if I faced an opponent who did this (although, I must ask, why would you?) however, if I tried to do this, I would explain my case to my opponent and judge by his reaction whether or not I should be allowed to.
Good analysis, but flawed. For instance, Cavalry is not the same as Infantry, yet may still use a Transport in some instances.Therefore, 'Jump Infantry' are not the same as 'Infantry', and thus, cannot use a transport unless stated otherwise in the transporting vehicle's rules.
Lost I was directly referring to Astantia saying she would have no problem with someone using a Chaplain in a transport and showing how it can be abused. I am also showing what can and cannot be done with the rules, but I am also showing how the rules can be used to gain an unfair unintended advantage which Astantia seemed to have missed.Lost Nemesis said:riki, as far as I can tell this has nothing with "having a problem with something" but instead going to figure out what can and can't be done with the rules.
GW has a habit of wording things poorly. It's safe to assume, though, that what they meant was that things equipped with Jump Packs and equivalents can't be inside transports. I'm sure we can all agree on that, regardless of the poor wording in both codex and rulebook. We've dealth with GW long enough to realise this. :yes:
No, they're not infantry. Check page 8 and 9 of the BGB. You'll see that they're two completely different things. This is why Beasts/Cavalry don't deploy in Escalation missions.rikimaru said:[Beasts and Cavalry] are classed as infantry, jump pack equipped units are not classed as infantry for the purposes of movement, so they canot use a transport because in the movement phase they are not classed as infantry they are jump infantry.
This is true, though that's mainly because nothing in the Tau army with a Jetpack has access to a transport... not like, for example, a Land Raider, or a Falcon Grav-tank, both of which are not dedicated transports. :yes:Caluin said:The phase doesn't mean anything. For instance, Jet Packs move only six inches in the Movement phase, yet shouldn't be/aren't allowed to be transported.
Wasn't there a "Word in Your Ear" recently about the perils of this so-called common sense?Caluin said:"...try to use common sense..."
Anything that has a jump pack is classed as JUMP infantry they even have there own unit classification and jump infantry in the space marine codex cannot take a transport, they have no transport option, so that means no transport of any kind, just because they can elect to move like normal infantry (but like is not the same as being).Caluin said:No, they're not infantry. Check page 8 and 9 of the BGB. You'll see that they're two completely different things. This is why Beasts/Cavalry don't deploy in Escalation missions.
And what if I elected to simply move my Jump Infantry as normal infantry during the movement phase? Would he then be allowed to embark the transport?
The phase doesn't mean anything. For instance, Jet Packs move only six inches in the Movement phase, yet shouldn't be/aren't allowed to be transported.
No apoligies needed man, it was a simple misunderstanding thats all.Caluin said:My apolgoies Riki - I thought you were arguing for why the IC would be able to ride in the transport - not against it like you are.
That's pretty thin IMHO, the section on pg55 leads to the opposite conclusion, it says "the exact changes [from a normal infantry unit] are detailed below", which is essentially a statement that jump _infantry_ are a subset of _infantry_. It then states in the movement section, after listing their special movement, "This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish". This statement is not purely equivalent to "you can elect to walk", or even "you can move 1" or 12"", it also underscores the point that "jump infantry are are proper subset of infantry, in that they are infantry with some extra rules, which are 'exactly detailed' in this section".rikimaru said:Anything that has a jump pack is classed as JUMP infantry they even have there own unit classification and jump infantry in the space marine codex cannot take a transport, they have no transport option, so that means no transport of any kind, just because they can elect to move like normal infantry (but like is not the same as being).
If any model takes a jump pack it counts as jump infantry for movement purposes, so yes a chaplain is still a chaplain, its still an IC for targeting and CC purposes etc, but for movement purposes its jump infantry.
Of course the phase means something, they define the whole game, even the jump infantry entry on page 55 of the BGB says 'The exact changes are detailed below' divided between the different phases', the BGB also says jump infantry can move 12" in the MOVEMENT phase and move as infantry in the ASSUALT phase, another distinction has been made between phases, of course the phase matters.
You can move as far as you want to in the movement phase up to the maximum distance allowed, you can move 1" if you so desire, movement distance means one thing for jump packs, you can choose to move up to 12" if you want.
If you want to move on foot it does not matter because your still classed as jump infantry because your wearing a bloody huge jump pack, your jump infantry because you have the option to use the jump pack, but if you elect to walk you move 6". So no just because he choses to walk the same as infantry does not mean your infantry, I mean I walk like a chinese man, hence I must be chinese if you follow that assumption.
No jump infantry is a seperate unit type, just like infantry, vehicles etc, they have there own set of rules they do not swap between unit types at will. It even states on page 53 'Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry' which means any unit in the unit type rules section of the BGB is NOT infantryHerrSprengstoff said:That's pretty thin IMHO, the section on pg55 leads to the opposite conclusion, it says "the exact changes [from a normal infantry unit] are detailed below", which is essentially a statement that jump _infantry_ are a subset of _infantry_. It then states in the movement section, after listing their special movement, "This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish". This statement is not purely equivalent to "you can elect to walk", or even "you can move 1" or 12"", it also underscores the point that "jump infantry are are proper subset of infantry, in that they are infantry with some extra rules, which are 'exactly detailed' in this section".
While I agree that Assault Squad members cannot ride in a transport as they do not have a transport option, an IC with a jump pack who is attached to a squad is still an IC and therefore falls under the blanket exclusion for ICs. Now, if there was a specific exception called out for SM Jump Infantry (like the explicit one for all Terminators on pg 62 of the standard rule book), I'd agree, but there isn't one that I've been able to find.
The plea to common sense at the end of your post isn't meaningful as common sense isn't necessarily applicable to the game (for a better explanation of this see WD315's Word in Your Ear).
While I personally agree that it is a potentially cheesy for the right list (though I'm not really clear how this would work, maybe some strange Blood Angels list?), it's allowed by the rules.
Because it's not important. The original question was phrased about Independant Characters who technically don't have transport options, but can join others. Take Scouts for instance - they can't have transports, but that doesn't stop them from mounting up in a Land Raider if one is avaliable.rikimaru said:and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).
Two slight things -Astantia said:Okay, what about when a Chaos Lord buys a Juggernaut of Khorne? They are said to move as Cavalry.
Then all your other points are irrelevent your agreeing that jump infantry is a seperate unit, and any unit that takes a jump pack moves as jump infantry, jump infantry have no option available to take a transport (even without jump packs, they are still jump infantry the pack does not matter taking it or not does not change their unit type)Astantia said:No jump infantry is a seperate unit type, just like infantry, vehicles etc, they have there own set of rules they do not swap between unit types at will. It even states on page 53 'Unless stated in this section, these unit types will follow the rules for infantry' which means any unit in the unit type rules section of the BGB is NOT infantry
I agree.
Oh for gods sake this is just getting silly, of course it matters if they have a transport option thats the whole point of the thread, they DO NOT have a transport option this means they cannot use any transport option.A chaplain can if he is not wearing a jump pack because he is an IC and can join units.Astantia said:The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport (why does everyone keep ignoring that little point).
I don't think it matters whether or not Assault Marines have a 'transport option.' If they chose to remove jump packs, would they be allowed in a Land Raider? What about Scouts? There is no 'transport option' there for them, but surely they are infantry and thus can go inside a Land Raider, right? Also, you're right it NEVER mentions transports.
Unit type, beast and cavalry cannot take transports unless its specifically listed that they can, they follow the unit rules for their UNIT TYPE cavalry on page 57 and page 50 as I quoted above, and as I pointed out before Jump infantry have an assault movement specification in the JI rules on page 55, they move 6" .Astantia said:
Your also totaly ignoring the rules for jump packs on page 24, it specifically states, modles equipped with a jump pack move as jump infantry, this means if they take a jump pack they forego all other movement types and transport options within the movement phase, because they are classed as JI for movement purposes.
Okay, what about when a Chaos Lord buys a Juggernaut of Khorne? They are said to move as Cavalry. That doesn't last only in the movement phase, they get the extra assault phase rules as well, and get the fall back rules also. I think 'move as jump infantry' isn't movement PHASE but whenever the Chaplain moves. Therefore, embarking on a transport is not addressed and is still viable.
Yes I know it says terminators cannot sweeping, it also says any model with a jump pack moves as jump infantry and jump infantry cannot take a transport. It says what jump infantry do on page 55, it says what jump packs do on page 24 of the marine codex.Astantia said:You cannot ignore the rules for wargear, its like saying a chaplain given terminator armour can ignore the rule for no sweeping advances because he is listed as infantry, the termie armour negates the ability to sweeping advance and the JP negates any use of a vehicle.
According to you your saying that IC status negates any rule that modifies a stat or movement / assault rate and that is just plain wrong, yes the chaplain is still an IC but he still has a jump pack, thats wargear, he cannot just disregard it.
We are not ignoring wargear rules. On page 25 of Codex: Space Marines under 'Terminator Armour' it staes that (Last sentence, first paragraph) 'Terminators may not sweeping advance.' Right there, in the rules for the wargear listed, it says what the 'Terminator Armour' does. Also on page 24, it lists what the Jump Pack does. It allows them to 'move as Jump Infantry' and it mentions that they have the option to deepstrike.
No one is saying he is jump infantry, what I am saying is his movement (in all phases) is restricted to jump infantry rules, it is very clearAstantia said:Yes he can move at the same rate as the infantry, but he has no choice because he has to move at the rate of the slowest unit member and the unit cannot use a transport while he is attached because he ahs a jump pack and JP models cannot utilise transports. just because he joins a unit does not mean he loses his unit status and for movement purposes he is JI just like he does not cease to be an IC in the assualt phase.
Could you tell me the page number of the BGB that states that 'models with a Jump Pack cannot utilize transports'? I know the reference for Jump Infantry, but as I already said, he MOVES as Jump Infantry and actually IS NOT Jump Infantry.
I know they are true, it does state that any transport may not transport non infantry units as I detailed above.Astantia said:If the chaplain had termie armour and joined a standard marine unit, the unit would not be able to sweeping advance because the termie armour modifies his stats in the assualt phase and the unit would not be able to use a rhino transport if he was attached would he? even though the Marines can take a rhino.
Both true, because, in the Terminator Armour entry in the Armoury it states that you cannot sweeping advance with it, and in the Rhino entry, it states that the Rhino cannot transport units with Terminator Armour. It does not say that it cannot transport a unit with a jump pack.
(1) trueAstantia said:You cannot ignore rules to suit, the chaplain is jump infantry for movement purposes and cannot take a transport ever.[/B]
1.) true
2.) true
3.) false
I have never said a jump pack makes you jump infantry, I have said a jump pack for a chaplain means he MUST use the jump pack movement rules (movement and assualt phase) and jump pack units movement phase has no option to utilise a transport. this is clear and has been explained, you have supplied no valid counter to this point.Astantia said:
Anyway I have stated very clearly why a Chaplain or any other character with a jump pack cannot ride in a transport and why JI cannot utilise transports and I will just be repeating myself further, if you or any body else want to ignore clear rules thats up to you, its a free country.
Nobody is taking rules to suit, and nobody is ignoring 'clear rules' (which, I must say is so precious a commodity in our hobby that anyone who ignores them should be flogged) I am stating that a Jump Pack does not make you jump infantry, and I have given my reasons for it. Both of us have very valid points, however, I believe mine to be correct. I am not flaming, ignoring blatant rules, or trying to cause confusion, I am trying to help someone with a question that they asked. If you could show me in the BGB or in Codex: Space Marines, or in an official FAQ to either that models with a Jump Pack cannot use transports then I will concede my points.
However, I still think an IC with Jump Pack can ride in a transport.
At the beggining of the special unit type section it says that unless otherwise stated they follow the normal infantry rules. As you pointed out in the above quote it makes no mention of transports and so they follow normal infantry rules for embarking and disembarking transports, thus allowing them to embark as normal infantry...The rule says they can chose to move as normal infantry if they wish and it gives two options, the normal 6" move and a 12" jump move, it never mentions transport and Marine jump pack troops have no option for transport