I've got 3000 or so points of Dwarves and it is possible to make some
nasty lists if you put your mind to it. They're not overpowered though, IMHO.

They have strengths and weaknesses like any army.

1) They have very good basic infantry. Their stat line is very good for the cost
and, as you said, they can be armed with lots of different weapon/armour choices.
Their infantry has to be good - it's their main troop type. They have no
cavalry or skirmishers.

2) Toughness 4 with good armour and high leadership. It takes a lot of effort
to kill them, and even if you do manage to kill enough to force a panic test, they
will probably pass it!
Again, they need this - They are very slow. It will take them time to
get to grips with the enemy, even with the relentless rule.
Also, they will rarely get the initial charge, so they have to be able to survive
the enemy's charge and then fight back.

3) Good Missile Weapons. Dwarves are one of the best armies for missile fire
(on a par with Wood Elves and Empire). Although their ballistic skill is average,
all their weapons are strength 4 or more. This means that the dwarves can
deploy enough firepower to force the enemy to come to them. Without this,
the enemy could just refuse to engage and the dwarves would never win a game!

4) Good specialist troops. They have some funky infantry choices: slayers,
ironbreakers, miners, etc. They need these to fill in "missing" troop types in their
army list. Each of them has their own strengths an weaknesses. Slayers are
indeed awesome in combat - but they die very quickly as they have no armour.

5) Magic resistance. In small to medium games they usually have enough
dispel dice to shut down armies that are not deliberately magic-heavy.
In larger games, they tend to suffer more.
Unless they happen to take an anvil of doom, they have no magic of their own,
so they have to be better in the other phases (missile, melee) in order to
stay competitive.

6) Yes, you can come up with some awesome Rune combos, but they aren't
cheap, and they're your only access to magical effects. You can have more
points than most in magic items, but your heros and lords can't ride mounts
or monsters.

7) Your troops are Slooooooooooooow. This means it's difficult for your troops
to catch routing enemies, reach important terrain before the enemy, and
even react to an event on one side of the battlefield.

To deal with your army specifically, it seems fine to me! A few too many thunderers
for my taste, but you've only got one piece of artillery. I'd drop the engineer and
use a tooled up thane myself.
Just my 2p, enjoy your dwarves and good luck playng with them!
Cheers,
Spon

 

well yes Dwarves are kick ass but there is a few things you need to point out to these people....

Ask anyone what the most important phase is in fantasy.....its movement, Dwarves movement value of 3 is a large glearing weakness, yes it can supported with anvil and a certain rune...but Dwarves Suck in movement phase.

Dwarves at the moment are suffering from the 'Army of the month' syndrome in that gamesworkshop sales staff and white dwarf magazines, Brag and glamourise the new Dwarf Army book, pointing out all its strengths and COOL rules in an Effort to sell as much Dwarf stuff as possible. Hence people hear all this stuff and start complaining that the army is cheesy/beardy.

Unfortunately because of the way Gamesworkshop release there army books sporadically over a period of a few years...Balance in games of 40k or fantasy are thrown out of the window. The new Dwarf army Book and wood elf army book look as if they have been geared toward the release of 7th edition...sooo these armies are most probably more powerfull than other armies that have been waiting a while for a newer up to date army books.

i can bet a million gold pieces that when the newer Empire book gets released, or vampire counts get there mitts on a new army book...the same people will be moaning about overpowerd units etc unless they collect empire or VC :shifty:

 

Oh my....so many things to say against this....but okay just to answer the comments the why I see them.

Too many dispel dice: Not at all. We get 2 extra dices no matter what. That would be the most reasonable thing to do as we dont have any wizards at all. We cant just make a fireball and throw it at a unit. We have to pay over 300 points to get that (Runelord + anvil).
Plus, they also answer their own question. A lot of dispel dice for a none-magic army...well as we dont have magic as such we have to get something to protect us as we cant really get back at them, in general, before CC.

Our guns are too powerfull: Well they are guns. What to expect. Wether you like it or not, it is pretty hard to stop a bullet. So naturally it has a few pluses. On the other hand, they have been made so its move-or-fire. That means we would have to stand still just to get an somewhat good shot. Remember they get some minuses like...over half range, if we have been moving (which we mostly have to) and if we hit skirmishers. So I say its pretty fair.

Too many magic points: That is not quite true. Our runes are very special and it takes a lot of effort to put a rune on an item. In other words, we cannot just take lots and lots of runes on our items. That is exactly what other races also cant, so also this makes perfect sense.

A basic warrior is to kitted: Well again what to expect. We are small and solid. Gotta protect our small bodies. And its not fat we hide under our tiny armour
We also hit last like, almost every time so I think its pretty fair we stand out a bit.

Slayers are too powerfull: Heh well then they dont know how to deal with them (let them figure it out themselves :yes Just think about it. They dont have any armour save (they are slayers) They are unbreakable (they are slayers) They are pretty crazy which gives them a faster attack and a bit more knowlegde in handling weapons. Fluffwise its perfect as all they really wants to do is to die by the hands of a big and bloody creature so why run and why should a standard unit have the honor of killing them.

Armour save is too high: Again we are small, solid and gotta protect our selves. In addition to that, as you might know, we dont have that great a movement face so it somewhat equals it.


All in all they have to realize that dwarves are not like other races. We have lived in mountains. A lot of our work is dangerous and so we have to protect our selves. Why not use the minerals we find to make hard rock armour or deadly weapons. We are always in battle as we want to get the strongholds back that are rightfully ours.
So I just think they should think twice before saying dwarves are too overpowered. Every race has its pluses and minuses so its all about making the right strategi.

Hope that would make your opponents think twice about fighting against you in mighty clashes or small missions

 

While I wouldn't say that all Dwarf armies are overpowered, I definitely have noticed certain aspects of the Dwarf army which I do think might have been done hastily.

First off, people complaining about Slayers. Are you sure they are complaining about regular Slayers, or the special Slayers army from the SoC book? The Slayers army is in my opinion, utterly rediculous. Regular slayers have their ups and downs, and I see no problem with them.

My main problem with Dwarves are your very high-stat troops, and the runic combos available. Especially those runes which can go on war machines. S7 bolt throwers? My chariot hurts! The disguise rune, and the immolation rune, (depending on the opponent of course), can make killing the machines very difficult.

If I know I am going up against a Dwarf army, I have to really consider not taking any chariots, and I know that I will need one item which can ignore armor saves, as there could be a Dwarf Lord out there completely immune to high strength attacks.

My problems with Dwarven elite infantry are that they are *very* cheap for their abilities, and they can be taken in such small units! I would kill to be able to take chaos warriors in units of 5. You can more than make up for your slow movement by taking multiple smaller units. Panic is a negligable worry as your leadership is high.

I haven't faced the anvil of doom, but I have heard litanies of hatred preached against the thing. I can't really comment on it first hand.

The extra base dispel dice is a bit overpowered in low point games. I think that the number of free dice generated should be based on army size. Perhaps 1 free DD for every 1000 points. This would still grant you 2 extra dice in a 2000 point battle, where I don't find the extra dice a problem. However this would make it viable to spend points on a wizard against dwarves in a 1000-1500 point game.

 

*sigh* the lements of people afraid of a challenge.

They have too many dispel dice for a non-magic army

we dont get spell casters what so ever. the only way we can get dispell if via runesmiths/lords which are pretty damn expencive compared to every other armies spell casters which give them the advantage of magic. as a counter ballence we get an extra 2 basic dispell dice.

Their guns are too powerful (This is ironic as my fledgeling army is mostly CC and they often play a shooty Empire army and don't have any problems. They also don't have a problem with my pure shooty Wood Elf army)

are guns are actually weaker than their empire counter parts. are cannons have less range and only cause d3 wounds to targets compared to d6 on empire cannons. our warmachines are reliable not powerful.

They have too many magic points for characters.

ill assume this is for magic items. again we do not get magic. as a pay off we get incredibly powerful weapons and equipment. we also get alot more of it.

A basic warrior can be kitted out with a truck load of items great weapons, hand weapons, sheild and use any at will.

we have M3 (slowest in the game) and I2. we will never hit first (exept against zombies or great weapons) and we will almost never get the charge. this makes huge differences on combat.

Slayers are too powerful.

they have no armour!!!! shoot them!!!! seems simple to me!!!

Armour save is too high

average dwarf save: 3+
average bretonian save: 2+
average Chaos save: 3+
average kislivite save: 3+
average empire save 4+ (1+ on knights)

yeah.. too high.... right....

My Army is:
16 Warriors
16 Longbeards
16 Thunderers
8 Slayers
1 Organ Gun
1 Master Engineer

a very nice and ballenced list. only two shooting units and 3 decently solid combat units.



who ever is saying this has clearly not played against dwarves before. we may have been powered up alot in the update but our main weaknesses are still there. if anything amplified. dwarves suffer from low movment. the lowest in the game. so you allmost allways get to choose to fight on your terms against them.

I haven't faced the anvil of doom, but I have heard litanies of hatred preached against the thing. I can't really comment on it first hand.

on this note the anvil has alot of hype behind it. its a tremendous point sink which is unreliable at best. with 50% chance of missfire (using it as it should be, with nothing but anceint powers) it makes it a real two bladed sword. the main reason its hated is because its unblockable by antimagic. but one spell per turn that you cant block is apparently unfair compared to the 19 powerdice high elf army.

 

Cheers for all your help and I hope that they listen to what you have to say.

Cheers again.

Lil Git

 

One of the big tests of the power of an army is the number of podium finishes that they have in tournaments. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but out of about 20-30 tournaments that I have seen the results of, Dwarfs have only finished in the top three once.

'Nuff said.

 

this isnt too good of a test really.. this is a test of potential.

All that shows is the fact that skaven ( sad... ) , brets, wood elves ( not as muhc the the other 2 ) have the potential to make cheesy unbeatable armys of doom.

when all ios said and done, currently playing a balenced army, dwarfs are a powerful enemy. but, having said that, thier are down sides. besides, if the people you play with play balenced forces ( which it doesnt sound like they do ) this wouldnt have a problem against other balenced forces, as they are usaully more mature players, past the stage of wanting to win at all costs.

said my bit, good luck to you, that is one of the most balanced ( and reliable ) army lists ive seen for a while.. no bolt throwers ! not a slayer list, not anvil of almightly winnage..

creme egg

 

I wouldnt say 'overpowered'.. however i would say their disadvantages dont even come close to outweighing their advantages..

Im an elven player.. yes dwarves are slow.. and i will always be the one charging with my quick elves.. but it never matters.. the fact is that my S3 infantry cant punch through T4 with a 3+ save.. GW made them TOO resistant to damage to balance out the lack of speed. So theres no disadvantage to dwarves there. Yeah a brick wall cant move..but you cant knock it down with a sword either..

Their shooting isnt too powerful.. its just too cheap. They can take a bolt thrower for 45 points.. and my dark elf bolt throwers cost 100.. My opponent put a rune on his bolt thrower to give it S7.. which f*cked my chariot on turn 1 before it even had time to get stupid lol.. a chariot worth 100 points killed by a 45pt bolt thrower..
Ive also had 9 corsairs killed by 1 organ gun in 1 shot once.
& 9 spearmen killed by 1 stome thrower in 1 shot.
both weapons cost around the same as the troops they killed in *1* damn turn..

Not having any magic is their only disadvantage in my opinion.. but all the extra dispell dice mean magic isnt a *weakness* for them either.. I think if you took away the extra 2 dispel dice so that magic was an all-round weakness (cant use it AND cant stand it), then dwarves would be fair.

& the leadership is just crazy.. i dont mind if its good.. but when basic infantry have the same Ld as my LORDS.. then its overkill.

I do like a challenge, but when you need Great luck to kill more than 1 guy with 20 repeater crossbow shots... it just takes the fun out of the game..

Thats my two cents

 

I wouldnt say 'overpowered'.. however i would say their disadvantages dont even come close to outweighing their advantages..

Im an elven player.. yes dwarves are slow.. and i will always be the one charging with my quick elves.. but it never matters.. the fact is that my S3 infantry cant punch through T4 with a 3+ save.. GW made them TOO resistant to damage to balance out the lack of speed. So theres no disadvantage to dwarves there. Yeah a brick wall cant move..but you cant knock it down with a sword either..

Their shooting isnt too powerful.. its just too cheap. They can take a bolt thrower for 45 points.. and my dark elf bolt throwers cost 100.. My opponent put a rune on his bolt thrower to give it S7.. which f*cked my chariot on turn 1 before it even had time to get stupid lol.. a chariot worth 100 points killed by a 45pt bolt thrower..
Ive also had 9 corsairs killed by 1 organ gun in 1 shot once.
& 9 spearmen killed by 1 stome thrower in 1 shot.
both weapons cost around the same as the troops they killed in *1* damn turn..

Not having any magic is their only disadvantage in my opinion.. but all the extra dispell dice mean magic isnt a *weakness* for them either.. I think if you took away the extra 2 dispel dice so that magic was an all-round weakness (cant use it AND cant stand it), then dwarves would be fair.

& the leadership is just crazy.. i dont mind if its good.. but when basic infantry have the same Ld as my LORDS.. then its overkill.

I do like a challenge, but when you need Great luck to kill more than 1 guy with 20 repeater crossbow shots... it just takes the fun out of the game..

Thats my two cents

Some comments:

1. Yes, they're tin cans. That's what Execs are for. All the Toughness and Armour can't help against Killing Blow. Nor against Armour-ignoring magic missiles, btw. And St4 AP volley shots from RBTs wound them on 2's and leave them a 6+ save.

2. First of all, Runes aren't free. The St7 Bolt Thrower cost 70pts, and he can't take another St7 Bolt Thrower unless it has another Rune in addition to the St increaser, which costs yet more points. Organ Guns and Stone Throwers are MEANT to slaughter infantry.

3. Elven warrior-lords have Ld10, just as Dwarf Lords. The only elven Lords that aren't Ld10 are spellcasters. (Treemen aren't Elves)

 

Some comments:

1. Yes, they're tin cans. That's what Execs are for. All the Toughness and Armour can't help against Killing Blow. Nor against Armour-ignoring magic missiles, btw. And St4 AP volley shots from RBTs wound them on 2's and leave them a 6+ save.

2. First of all, Runes aren't free. The St7 Bolt Thrower cost 70pts, and he can't take another St7 Bolt Thrower unless it has another Rune in addition to the St increaser, which costs yet more points.Organ Guns and Stone Throwers are MEANT to slaughter infantry

3. Elven warrior-lords have Ld10, just as Dwarf Lords. The only elven Lords that aren't Ld10 are spellcasters. (Treemen aren't Elves)

A squad of executioners will get around 6 attacks.. 4+ to hit.. 3 hits.. maybe *1* 6 to wound if I am lucky!.. and 3+ to wound without killing blow. so thats 2 dead.. wow :|

The magic missiles only work if you get through the damn Dispel dice.. after the power dice stealing rune.
And Reaper bolt throwers fire 6 strength 4 shots.. usually over half dist = hitting on 4+.. 3 hits.. S4 vs T4 = wounding on *4+*.. not 2+.. dont know where you got that from :wacko: though in case i hope you are right lol..id be happy to be wrong.. ?

YOur point about the bolt thrower is rather invalid, it still intant-kills something more expesnive than it in 1 shot. and he doesnt need 2 of them. he could kill both my chariots with 1 before they get into combat.

With the leadership, i was talking about dwarven basic troops having the same Ld as my lords.. not dwarf lords in comparrison to elven lords..

Organ Guns and Stone Throwers are MEANT to slaughter infantry

Yeah.. my point exactly.. hence why they should cost more. they can earn their posts back in 1 turn.. it takes my 100 pt bolt thrower nearly all 6 turns to earn its points back against dwarves.

I guess elves are a little underpowered, so i would be wrong to say that means dwarves are overpowered (since its so hard to beat them with elves). But you know what im saying.

 

A squad of executioners will get around 6 attacks.. 4+ to hit.. 3 hits.. maybe *1* 6 to wound if I am lucky!.. and 3+ to wound without killing blow. so thats 2 dead.. wow :|

The magic missiles only work if you get through the damn Dispel dice.. after the power dice stealing rune.
And Reaper bolt throwers fire 6 strength 4 shots.. usually over half dist = hitting on 4+.. 3 hits.. S4 vs T4 = wounding on *4+*.. not 2+.. dont know where you got that from :wacko: though in case i hope you are right lol..id be happy to be wrong.. ?

YOur point about the bolt thrower is rather invalid, it still intant-kills something more expesnive than it in 1 shot. and he doesnt need 2 of them. he could kill both my chariots with 1 before they get into combat.

With the leadership, i was talking about dwarven basic troops having the same Ld as my lords.. not dwarf lords in comparrison to elven lords..


Yeah.. my point exactly.. hence why they should cost more. they can earn their posts back in 1 turn.. it takes my 100 pt bolt thrower nearly all 6 turns to earn its points back against dwarves.

I guess elves are a little underpowered, so i would be wrong to say that means dwarves are overpowered (since its so hard to beat them with elves). But you know what im saying.

I was slaughtered by high elves not too long ago. Although you do not have the book of hoeth, (wich puts all those dispel dice and scrolls down to drain) you can still have quite alot of magic. You can also assisinate the runesmiths early game if you wish, just charge is unit with a noble on a pegasus, and you'll probably get away when fleeing too!

How do you end up at long range with a bolt thrower? you hit long range beyond 24, so unless you march towards him you are likely to get 3s on is advancing lines. also, rank penetration with no armour saves is also a good option against dwarfs.

The organ gun has a maximum range of 24", so you can choose to stay away from it, and negate it's impact for most of the game. it moves 3" a turn.

 

a bolt thrower for dwarf basic cost is 45 but to make it str 7 thats another s5 points so its 70 so you were wrong there. If your going to go near an organ gun with anything your a bit nuts. its job is to take out large amounts and its not cheap. it is 120 points. This is very similar to an empire hellblaster which can fire 3 times per turn but nobody complains about that.
Chargeing the front of any army with elves is nuts, elves cant last in combat head on, they need flank charges. i have seen powerful elf units charge the front of my unit of 50 night goblins and run. but granted i have seen grail knights run from my night goblins

Also, you cant complain about a stone thrower. it is just as accurate, or inacurate as my goblin rock lobber but cost more points. 10 points more to be precise.

I can see where you would fail getting through armour but being elves you should have charged flank to negate rank bonus therefor being able to win by CR

Also, why are you using multi shot, with dwarfs they have ranks, got for single shot no armour save????

 

a bolt thrower for dwarf basic cost is 45 but to make it str 7 thats another s5 points so its 70 so you were wrong there. If your going to go near an organ gun with anything your a bit nuts. its job is to take out large amounts and its not cheap. it is 120 points. This is very similar to an empire hellblaster which can fire 3 times per turn but nobody complains about that.
Chargeing the front of any army with elves is nuts, elves cant last in combat head on, they need flank charges. i have seen powerful elf units charge the front of my unit of 50 night goblins and run. but granted i have seen grail knights run from my night goblins

Also, you cant complain about a stone thrower. it is just as accurate, or inacurate as my goblin rock lobber but cost more points. 10 points more to be precise.

I can see where you would fail getting through armour but being elves you should have charged flank to negate rank bonus therefor being able to win by CR

Also, why are you using multi shot, with dwarfs they have ranks, got for single shot no armour save????

Firstly, dont use the word 'complain' with me.. you posted a thread asking a question and i gave my opinion.. i didnt post a thread saying "dwarves are too strong"..so dont tell me im complaining.. If you arent open to both sides of a debate then dont start one....

That aside..
obviously i didnt know the cost of the rune of penetration but i did know it would be more than 45. and as i said 70 is still cheap.

I know what you are saying about elves not fighting head on. but normally, if an elven player engages you to the front, you can bet your piggy bank that there will be something crashing into your flank next turn (as you said to do). So its more of a 'ruthless, sacrifice the infantry for the greater good' tactic. if thats 'nuts' then so be it. :shifty:

The problem with using the single shot over multi shot is hitting with 1 dice. i know the single shot will do more damage, but thats only if it actually hits.. hitting on 4+ means on average it will miss for 3 turns, and that alot of wasted fire power.. atleast with the multi shot you are guarenteed afew hits. (usually kills 1 dwarf CC warrior or 2 shooty ones per turn. the single shot would probably kill 2 or 3, but the fact that it only does it every second turn makes it, at best, on parr with the multi)
I guess it falls down to a players willingness to take a gamble. I'll try it afew times and see what happens.

peace

 

Well, one of my first games with Dark Elves was against a Dwarf Army....To be honest, I didn't think I stood a chance. I couldn't see a single disadvantage that they had other than their slow movement (but to be fair, dwarfs don't move from their shooting position all that much). They have good toughness, amazing leadership and amazing armour saves, which meant they would be hard to beat in combat. They have amazing guns as described above, so I though my good units were just going to get blown to pieces before I reached his lines. Also Thunderers will just rip elves apart (wounding on 3s and allowing no armour save usually to elf armour). Then, to top it off, the chances of me getting my magic through was unlikely....So, I also thought they were overpowered.....However, despite this being my first or second game with Dark Elves (It was the dwarf players first or second game with his dwarfs too) I still managed to get a good win.....It appeared to me that Dwarfs were in fact harder to play with than they seem. They are well balanced, even though it seems impossible for them to be when you look at their army book.
The S7 Bolt Thrower does seem really nasty (especially with the Engineer dude with them, then they fire at BS5!). I do feel however that the dwarfs need their shooting power (not a cheesy amount of course....) as they can be outnumbered......However, the thing that I notice most people forgeting about dwarfs is that they don't really have any flankers.....(well fast ones anyway!). Their units have to rely on taking other units on head to head, or having to deal with another rank and file unit and a flanker. With dwarf movement they can't really do much about fast flankers except their shooting, as their movement is so low. Their units seem strong, but when flanked they won't last long (much like all the other rank and file units in warhammer). So, when it comes down to combat, the Dwarfs can be as a large disadvantage, especially against fast armies, despite their amazing stats, armour etc.
I hope that made sense :w00t:

 

Why do most dwarf players always state movement being their biggest weakness?

Shooting is your biggest strength, and most of your weapons support not moving and just shooting... so movement doesn't really have that big of an effect on you. On close combat lists, yes it is a hinderence, but it is easily balanced out by what you can give your warriors for such a low cost. Ironbreakers seem like a joke to me, for how low they cost.

I'm not saying that dwarves are overpowered, but its hard to complain about their 'weaknesses' when they don't really have any.

 

Why do most dwarf players always state movement being their biggest weakness?

Well, because their low movement is their only real 'weakness' like you said....It is not the fact that they have low movement that I think is their main weakness, but the lack of fast units. They can't set up charges, or flank units (easily) or do most of those other movement related acts that are so important in Fantasy....However, they don't need to, and if they did they would be underpowered simply because they can't. Elves get to move fast (and have lots of fast moving units!) because they are not tough. Dwarfs are just the other way around, although they get ace artillery (which can blow up remember!) and can pretty much stop the oppositions magic.....However, I do still feel they are pretty much a balanced list, if not slightly more powerful that others in the right hands, but not overpowered or cheesy (despite appearances when reading their army book, they aren't all that easy to use or as powerful as they are made out to be....).

 

Alright .. my turn to say what I think!

I've played against dwarves for many, many years. Most of the time it's been a hard fight, especially before the battle begins. You see him deploy the usual;

- More cannons than your empire army has (and they don't blow up).
- Units optimized for holding the line (high Sv, Ld and T).
- Superb units for holding flanks (slayers!)
- A barrier of dispeldice, making you regret taking two mages (won't do anything anyway)

This is the way everyone feels when facing dwarfs. But somehow during the battle, things doesn't seem so hopeless anylonger. His lines starts to get thinner, some of the cannons actually miss, your knights finally kills that final slayer on the flank, he misses a Ld 10 ..

But what is it during the way that makes it even POSSIBLE to beat a dwarf army? When talking about it beforehand .. when taking the first look at his battleline .. when looking though his armybook .. it always seems hopeless. They're better than me at everything!

Before taking a look at this let's have a look at what the dwarfplayer always complains about - their 'low' movemet. Sure it's 1" less than most races, but what does it matter when you stand still all the time? When I'm facing dwarves they always deploy in the 'V-formation', making it impossible to flank them unless you break the slayers. And if they need to rearrange their ranks, they can still march (suddenly they're faster than everyone else :O). And remember that undead are even slower .. not being able to march makes them 2" slower than dwarves on the run (should they need to move that is).

But let's take a look at the course of the battle again. Once the battle has started, as I said, things are suddenly starting to look better. The dwarf-player needs alot of luck if everything that I've mentioned is going to work (but then again, any army with luck will win eventually). Let's face it - dwarf cannons are very safe, but they won't hit all the time. Added to this is that you have to wound (it's impossible to wound a giant closer than 12" from your line ). It's enough that he misses once and then he has a giant on his neck. Killing it with dwarf warriors won't be easy.

Anyone can miss a dispell once in a while (even dwarves), which can potentially turn the battle. As long as you have more or the same amount of powerdice as the dwarves dispelldice you have an average change of casting your spells.
I disagree with the players that claim dwarves are 'immune to magic' or 'too good at dispelling'. This can be good in 500-1000 pts battles, but more than that .. it's like any other army. An exception to this is the 'steal-rune' (whatever it's name) that adds one dispeldice and removes one powerdice from the enemy. That is reeeeally good! :|

And the anvil of doom is not 'just a spell'. To be able to move your entire army or cause havoc on enemy troops is better than most other lores. Not being able to dispell this very devastating to the enemy plan.

Well then .. have to get back to work .. could have said some other things as well but that'll have to wait. I'll guess my conclusion would be:

DWARVES ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE (at least once the battle has started) :w00t:

 

the last game i had with dwarfs was against VC. My organ gun was ineffective since he deployed 36" away. I got combat on turn 5 with slayers purely because Zombies appeared infront of them. My organ gun had to move 3 turns to get range thunderers did naff all. Each turn I was being hit by alot of magic. Curse of years on ironbreakers. gaze of negash on longbeards. needless to say I lost. lol

The game after this about 3 days later he did exactly the same army list and as it was coming on the table he deployed exactly like before and it looked like the battle was going the same way again but I took standard bearer and runesmith instead the standard gave me +2 to dispel and the runesmith gave me +1 equalling +3 also most of my army got a free move. After the first VC magic phase where he got no spells cast he gave up complaining how they were overpowered. My standard cost 275 with strollaz rune, master rune of Valaya and rune of courage. my rune smith cost 122 points with master rune of spellbreaking.

I had to demote my entire unit of slayers to troll slayers and loose a few ironbreakers to get that little lot in so my army was smaller and weaker. but end of turn 1 he gave up.

 

I think even dwarf players aren't too proud to deny that at least that special character on the anvil is broke. Ancient power on a 3+ with a re-roll, which makes D3 units take 2D6 str 4 hits, and halves their movement? Add a couple of gun lines and warmachines, and your opponent will never see combat. (Trust me, I've seen this before, and it ain't pretty. Check out a thread I started a while ago in the Dwarf forums called 'How Broke are this guy's Dwarves?')

I'm not too quick to declare things broke or cheesy, though I do believe that the potential for these kinds of armies exists. I'm much more inclined to be frustrated by certain playstyles. The 'fade-away' WoodElf armies are very frustrating to play against because you'll rarely get a charge off that you want, and you're pretty much put to the mercy of your opponent. The same for high shooting dwarves. If you sit back and blast my army to bits as I march towards you, consider what dynamics of gameplay are going on here: you're rolling dice, and I'm removing models. It's not too fun, and like I said before; frustrating.

A buddy of mine said it best: If your army is so simple in its tactics that a monkey can play your list, then I'll have no fun playing against it.

Leave the high shooting armies to 40K, where things like that are much more acceptable.

 

thorek is indeed probebly the most overpowered dwarf (possibly character) around. the entire points behind the anvil is that its random. it either works wonderfully or ends up a waste of 320+ points.

Leave the high shooting armies to 40K, where things like that are much more acceptable.

i could not have said it better my self. shooting is unreliable and is onyl a support tool in fantasy. the moment you start building an entire list around shooting with no fluff behind it (i know a very nice and ballenced dawi gunline army themed around an engineers guild) you ruin the game for your self and your foe.

whats even more comical is if you build your entire army around shooting you negate our greatest strength, the infantry! dawi infantry are the best points for value troops around with some of the best equipment and possibly the most resistant to damage statline available (short of tooled up warriors of chaos).

its allways alot more interesting when you march against your foe in my opinion. alot of players might say it weakens a dawi force by exposing flanks but i have to disagree. it lets you restrict your foes options and make them face you head on while your shooting works against those fast annoying units which attack your flanks and rear (see? a support role).

are dawi overpowered? on paper yes. but just like any other army a dwarf force will collapse if the general commanding it is inflexable and rellies on luck to win battles.

--Arklite

 

As a new dwarf player, I may not be able to shed the all knowing light on this subject, but I believe I can try. As we all have heard 2 million times dwarfs are lacking in the movement phase, even though they don't use it that phase that much. Another spot that I think people overlook is their point value.

When my friend, an orc player, plays a 500pt game he fields about 60 models, I might field about 30. When I am creating sample army lists I find that certain things most players would take for granted I have to cut out so my squads will fit, like champions. So yes...my guys may have amazing stat lines, but when 1 unit of 16 and 1 of 12 go up against 3 units of 20 AND a chariot...it can make me very uneasy.

Let's look at some other things about the dwarfs--

-Sure, when calculating CR they may take less wounds and deal more, but they lack in everything else. You can just presume that the enemy will outnumber you, so that's +1, and your only fielding a unit of 16 but after casualties it goes down to 15, against a unit of maybe 16 at this point will give the enemy another +1, but wait! a sneaky unit of 10 pops out and flanks the dwarfs! so taking away their rank bonus, calculating casualties, that gives another +2. So...that would mean the sturdy dawi defenders will have to inflict 5 more wounds than the enemy to win combat, or take a break test at ld7 after modifiers...then we'd get to roll to flee....woot for 2d6-1!!! So we need that stat line.

-Also, since your average dwarfs unit costs more than most, if one of your squads gets eliminated in pursuit or just falls back and breaks your line, you'll have only maybe 2 units to hold your line while goblins seep through the breach...to rear charge you.

-Oooo, good leadership! But wait, for the low low price of maybe 100-150pts any other army can use a ld of the general who is the BSB re-rolling break tests. Annnnd....because of their high point cost, if one dwarf unit fails a break test it could be fatal. So a dwarf player might find himself speding points on things that upgrade his ld even though in some games he may never use it.

-Yes, we get good items, but its not like were getting them for free, we have upgrades that cost 100 points! So next time your fighting a dwarf lord, know your fighting a lord and a unit worth a gingles and whirlygigs. Besides, if you don't like that, go back and change the entire fluff about dwarfs being the best craftsmen in the old worlde. Oh and dont forget, fluff wise its our way of casting spells.

-On to the dwarf "firepower"...
1.the bolt thrower is a pile of crap unless given an engineer and a rune of penetrating, or if your using it to just add more punch, making it an 85 point model.

2.The grudge thrower scatters artillery dice inches, Id rather move my leman russ and fire the battle cannon(40k reference), id only use it against heavy infantry like....well...dwarfs! Given a rune of accuracy so it hits something it costs 105 points.

3.Cannon is actually not bad, the only real problem is when push comes to shove great connons have range 60, giving any Empire player the upperhand.

4. The almighty dwarf thunderers cost 14 points a model no upgrades. Making a squad of 10 more than an organ gun, plus the move-or-shoot rule makes them not so much for my liking. Even the Quarrellers(xbowmen) cost 11 points, making them as much as a longbeard.

Sry for the long post. So that's my spin on it. I am not saying boohoo for dwarfs we suck, I'm just saying they cost a lot and will almost always be outnumbered in a battle. If I ever had to play myself in a 500pt game I'd just throw all my squads at a unit of warriors and try to get them to break, once they do that the dwarf player has lost an important block of his most likely 2 unit army.

Remember, I am in no way an expert on the dwarf army and how it operates, I'm just a kid with an Army Book.

Proƒet

 

1.the bolt thrower is a pile of crap unless given an engineer and a rune of penetrating, or if your using it to just add more punch, making it an 85 point model.

I like the humble bolt thrower, it has no chance of misfire and when it hits it will do the business. I always give mine engineers for the extra bs so for 60 pts i think it is well worth taking a couple.

Ciao

Stonehambey

 

When my friend, an orc player, plays a 500pt game he fields about 60 models, I might field about 30.

Ok, Orcs are VERY cheap because they suffer from animosity and have bad leadership (That combat you talk about later where the dwarfs get flanked and everything, after all that they only test on Ld 7? Orcs always do, but worse when they lose combat by even 1...).

-Sure, when calculating CR they may take less wounds and deal more, but they lack in everything else. You can just presume that the enemy will outnumber you, so that's +1, and your only fielding a unit of 16 but after casualties it goes down to 15, against a unit of maybe 16 at this point will give the enemy another +1, but wait! a sneaky unit of 10 pops out and flanks the dwarfs! so taking away their rank bonus, calculating casualties, that gives another +2. So...that would mean the sturdy dawi defenders will have to inflict 5 more wounds than the enemy to win combat, or take a break test at ld7 after modifiers...then we'd get to roll to flee....woot for 2d6-1!!! So we need that stat line.

That's the one I mean :yes:

for the low low price of maybe 100-150pts any other army can use a ld of the general who is the BSB re-rolling break tests. Annnnd....because of their high point cost, if one dwarf unit fails a break test it could be fatal.

Erm, 100-150pts is not low when you now look at the total points cost the unit the character is in. If that unit breaks it's easily about 300pts gone rather than 150pts. Also, all your opponent has to do is direct most of his attacks against the character to kill him and you lose your high leadership (which most of the time, if a character is a Hero, would only be about Ld 8 for most armies, less than that of dwarf units).

-Yes, we get good items, but its not like were getting them for free, we have upgrades that cost 100 points!

From what I have heard, you are better off not giving your Dwarf Lords much items, because they are good value for points anyway. Personally, I can't understand anyone complaining about Dwarf items, because, as you say yourself, they pay for them.

the bolt thrower is a pile of crap unless given an engineer and a rune of penetrating, or if your using it to just add more punch, making it an 85 point model.

Bolt Throwers are pretty damn good in my opinion (I say this after a 35pts Bolt Thrower killed a 35pts ogre and dealt 2 wounds to another in it's first turn of shooting...). If upgrading a dwarf bolt thrower like that only costs 85 points then I would certainly prefer that to the 100pts Elves pay for theirs. Destroying chariots in 1 hit, hitting on 2's? Sounds pretty damn amazing to me!

2.The grudge thrower scatters artillery dice inches, Id rather move my leman russ and fire the battle cannon(40k reference), id only use it against heavy infantry like....well...dwarfs! Given a rune of accuracy so it hits something it costs 105 points.

3.Cannon is actually not bad, the only real problem is when push comes to shove great connons have range 60, giving any Empire player the upperhand.

Cannons and Grudge Throwers are a bit random, but if you are used to using them, they can be devastating (although, as you said the Grudge Thrower still scatters). Hit a character with a Cannon and watch them die!

The almighty dwarf thunderers cost 14 points a model no upgrades. Making a squad of 10 more than an organ gun, plus the move-or-shoot rule makes them not so much for my liking. Even the Quarrellers(xbowmen) cost 11 points, making them as much as a longbeard.

...Have you ever faced Elves with Dwarves before? Thunderer guns kill your average Elf on 3's. They don't normally allow saves against elves. In fact, against any kind of troops Thunderers do serious damage (assuming of course they aren't Goblins or Slaverats, cause they ain't worth shooting). As for quarrellers, you are definately better off with Longbeards.

they cost a lot and will almost always be outnumbered in a battle.

...Hmm, I don't think dwarfs really cost that much at all when you look at how good they are. Generally, they could outnumber Elves if they wanted to, because elves cost a similar amount (That's what Dwarfs want to hear! Kill the Elves!).

I am not just disagreeing with everything you say (although it may seem like it), I just disagree that Dwarfs being "expensive" is really a disadvantage. I have played Dwarfs a few times and they never really seem to be outnumbered. If they are, then by a very small amount. Against Orcs and Goblins pretty much every army is outnumbered, because all their units are so damn cheap (although, they can be unreliable....).
Good post though, I like it when people put loads of effort into a post.

 

Yer basic dwarf is the same cost as a skeleton, so an infantry heavy army is a feasable choice for dwarfs

Ciao

Stonehambey