No, following the heresy all samples of the geneseed belonging to the traitor legiosn were either sealed away or destroyed.

 

This is indeed possible - it's just amazingly unlikely.

There is absolutely no way that the Imperium would EVER do this - they hate the original Traitor Marines and fear Chaos too much to even consider it. The chapter created would never be accepted as loyal Space Marines - and assuming that some borderline-rogue Adeptus Mechanicus agent did create such a chapter - either because he was a heretic or because he thought it would be a good idea - the Inquisition would crush it before it ever got up to strength, let alone in to combat. Aquiring the actual geneseed of traitor marines wouldn't be the biggest problem - you can just retrieve it from a Chaos Space Marine found dead in the field.

That leaves precious few options - outside of the Imperium there are startlingly few ways to become a Space Marine - I'm talking single figures here! And even these methods are only used to replace the odd Chaos Space Marine when one is killed - think Fabius Bile.

So overall - I can see why people would go down that route - anything to spice up Vanilla Marines, right? But it isn't the best example of army fluff you'll find - it just about hangs on to being believeable, but only by its finger nails!

 

Think of it this way.. The Imperium believes people and objects can become permanently tainted through contact with evil things like chaos and aliens. They believe in things like curses for example, and a lot of the time they actually seem to be right (think the Lamenters and the Afriel strain.) They also tend to believe that if something goes wrong, it's because it was doomed to go wrong from the beginning.. because it was flawed, or weak, or tainted in some way.

Besides, would you inject yourself with genetic material drawn from Satan?

 

There is absolutely no way that the Imperium would EVER do this

KNOWINGLY do this, you mean...

Besides, would you inject yourself with genetic material drawn from Satan?

Maybe not. But what if I didn't know it came from him?

 

KNOWINGLY do this, you mean... Maybe not. But what if I didn't know it came from him?

Of course they'd know - founding Astartes chapters is a seriously big deal and there is no way of obtaining traitor gene seed without taking it from dead Chaos Space Marines. So the implication would be that the High Lords and the big bosses in the Adeptus Mechanicus would sanction the use of traitor gene seed in creating a chapter.

They'd know because gene seed is very distinctive and they would do some serious screening any time - let alone if they weren't 100% certain where it came from.

Not going to happen.

 

There have always been rumors that the Blood Ravens use the geneseed from the Thousand Sons, hence their greater use of librarians, their aquisition of knowledge, and the suggestion that the chapter has secrets it prefers to keep well hidden. Of course, the rumors about the Blood Raven's origin vary greatly, and all must be taken with rather large grains of salt. The possible rumored sources of the geneseed range from the Emperor of Mankind, himself, all the way to the other end of the spectrum with Kermit the Frog being the unknown Primarch...

 

There have always been rumors that the Blood Ravens use the geneseed from the Thousand Sons, hence their greater use of librarians, their aquisition of knowledge, and the suggestion that the chapter has secrets it prefers to keep well hidden. Of course, the rumors about the Blood Raven's origin vary greatly, and all must be taken with rather large grains of salt.

Something which always bugged me about that theory..

The Thousand Sons didn't have a massive librarium because they had the geneseed of Magnus the Red. They had a massive librarium because virtually every inhabitant of the planet they lived on was psychic. Prospero was a planet of mutants where virtually everyone had some degree of psychic power.

Geneseed doesn't make you psychic, psychic power is a separate mutation which affects a small proportion of the human race, then when a psychic becomes a space marine you have a librarian. Therefore, the abnormal number of librarians in the Blood Ravens didn't crop up just because someone stuck Magnus' gene-seed in them, they're there because the chapter pays special attention to its librarium and tries to recruit psykers.

I agree there's a lot of dodgy evidence about their origins, but I don't see why people specifically fixate on the thousand sons. There is no reason for any correlation between the number of librarians and the thousand sons gene-seed.

In short, I'm with you on the large grains of salt..

 

The only two chapters i know for sure that have "traitor" geneseeds are Grey Knights and that Thousands sons Loyalist chapter.. i forget its name but it uses "M" as its chapter icon or something to that effect. On both cases they were loyal to the emperor from what i have heard and read.

 

Grey Knights most definately do not have traitor gene seed - the only hint as to the origin of their gene seed is that it may have come from the Emperor himself. Also, I've never heard of the other chapter you mention - anyone have any info on this?

 

You might want to reconsider the GK, they certainly do not use the geneseed from the traitor legions, they have a special geneseed.

 

Grey Knights most definately do not have traitor gene seed - the only hint as to the origin of their gene seed is that it may have come from the Emperor himself. Also, I've never heard of the other chapter you mention - anyone have any info on this?

@ both: It would appear from the Flight of the Eisenstein that *certain theories* about the geneseed of the Grey Knights would have some validity.

I've posted a theory about that once or twice before. To put it bluntly, a batch of geneseed could have been mislabeled due to someone clerk's error - you know how bad Imperial bureaucracy is. Assume this happened before the Heresy. Millenia later someone sent to retrieve geneseed samples for creation of a new Chapter digs up this particular batch, takes it out of stasis...


I can't remember the name of that "thousand sons loyalist chapter", but if I remember correctly all that fluff was fanmade.

Blood Ravens are the Chapter he's talking about, I think.

 

I'm pretty sure the 'M' chapter have Ultramarine Origins but can't remember the chapter name.
Grey Knights do not have traitor geneseed.

 

By the 'M' Chapter do you mean the Brotherhood of a Thousand? Because they are of Ultramarine origins. And it is most likely that Grey Knights' Gene Seed is from the flesh of the Emperor himself.

 

well, it wouldnt be so difficult, really.

just corrupt the official "seed-planter"..

sure he'll grab the right one, the approved out of the fridge, but with some slight of hand, he could use a tainted gene-seed and start it off.


didnt fabius do this btw?

 

I don't know about Fabius, but I know that what you're saying: "taint the official to slip it in" - has already been covered. That might all happen, but that chapter would be eradicated almost immediately.
Even if it did survive, if it was created by "tainting" somone, it would already have the hand of Chaos involved, and the Gods won't make an army without knowing it's fate already. Remember, Tzeentch doesn't just control "Evil" fate- he controls ALL fate, and everything that happens, happens to forwards the ploys of the great Changer.

The chapter would be cool, but I doubt it could happen.
The only feasible way to write it in, would be to have a Third+ founding chapter created, which then creates a 4+ founding chapter, and then turns rogue/heretic. That would be a little more acceptable, even though the Inq. would track down and scan the successors if not destroy them utterly. Thus, the chapter would have to flee as soon as they knew they were up for scan. But at that point, they'd be logged Rogue and killed on sight.

 

I don't think that the Grey Knights have Garro's gene seed. It was implied at the end of FotE that Garro would form an organization that was "inquisitive." Although at the time of Garro's death and the rest of the loyalist from the Traitor legions maybe could be used to form a new chapter...

 

The Ad Mech keeps a stock of geneseed from EVERY legion on Terra and Mars, even the traitor legions. They were most definitely not destroyed. We know this because traitor geneseed was mixed with loyalist geneseed during the Cursed Founding to attempt to deal with the genetic degradation loyalist geneseed has experienced. Apparently mixing geneseed doesn't work so well. The only actual rule they have is that they won't use geneseed captured from the Traitor Legions, but their stock on Terra and Mars from before the Heresy is still fair game. Especially since its such good quality!

Grey Knights aren't made from special geneseed. They are most definately made from Death Guard geneseed stock. The main reason for this is that Death Guard geneseed is the purest strain and works precisely as the Emperor had intended all geneseed to function. That is the reason that the Death Guard were known for their constitution during the Great Crusade. Garro was one of the first Inquisitors and he formed the Grey Knights to be its militant order. If you remember, Garro had experience fighting and destroying daemons.
After the Heresy, 90% of the marines still alive were from the Ultramarines legion because they managed largely avoid fighting in the Heresy at all, and as the Ultramarines were a logistical and occupation force Guilliman had plenty of time to swell his ranks before the Heresy. Guilliman wrote the codex and divided his Legion into several hundred chapters but retained command of them all and used his power to keep his private empire of Ultramar. Guilliman fancied himself as the new Emperor. Relatively few marine chapters have been made since, so the vast majority of chapters still use Ultramarines geneseed, but the Adeptus Terra are able to create a geneseed from any geneseed they like, including Traitor Legions.

 

The Ad Mech keeps a stock of geneseed from EVERY legion on Terra and Mars, even the traitor legions. They were most definitely not destroyed. We know this because traitor geneseed was mixed with loyalist geneseed during the Cursed Founding to attempt to deal with the genetic degradation loyalist geneseed has experienced. Apparently mixing geneseed doesn't work so well. The only actual rule they have is that they won't use geneseed captured from the Traitor Legions, but their stock on Terra and Mars from before the Heresy is still fair game. Especially since its such good quality!

Grey Knights aren't made from special geneseed. They are most definately made from Death Guard geneseed stock. The main reason for this is that Death Guard geneseed is the purest strain and works precisely as the Emperor had intended all geneseed to function. That is the reason that the Death Guard were known for their constitution during the Great Crusade. Garro was one of the first Inquisitors and he formed the Grey Knights to be its militant order. If you remember, Garro had experience fighting and destroying daemons.
After the Heresy, 90% of the marines still alive were from the Ultramarines legion because they managed largely avoid fighting in the Heresy at all, and as the Ultramarines were a logistical and occupation force Guilliman had plenty of time to swell his ranks before the Heresy. Guilliman wrote the codex and divided his Legion into several hundred chapters but retained command of them all and used his power to keep his private empire of Ultramar. Guilliman fancied himself as the new Emperor. Relatively few marine chapters have been made since, so the vast majority of chapters still use Ultramarines geneseed, but the Adeptus Terra are able to create a geneseed from any geneseed they like, including Traitor Legions.

Sorry - but most of that is pure speculation on your part. You don't know that Garro founded the Inquisition or that Grey Knight geneseed was taken from him. It is also pure speculation as to what Guilliman's motives were. Furthermoer - as I said - the only canon we have about the Grey Knight geneseed is that it MAY have come from the Emperor himself.

Some of your theories I agree with, others I don't - either way, please don't try to sell them as cold hard fact, because they simply aren't.

 

Actually, a high percentage of the loyalist marines from the traitor legions in the Horus Heresy (boy, that's a mouthful to say) were marines that were created directly by the Emperor--not marines that were created from their newly found primarch.

So, technically, the theory about the Grey Knights containing the gene-seed from the traitor legions AND the theory about the GK's geneseed coming directly from the Emperor could both be true.

At any rate, despite any 'accidents' or 'clerical errors' that may result in the creation of a chapter with traitor marine geneseed (pre or post Heresy), I imagine the Inquisition's policy of "kill them just to be sure" would come into effect. After all, the Inquisition's expressed it's happiness to kill and/or wipe out supposedly loyalist chapters like the Black Templars and those crazy black raged BA-descendant marines on several occasions.

Heck, the Inquisition probably routinely has marine detachments 'disappear' in order to acquire and screen geneseed.

I friggin' love the Inquisition. ^_^

 

Actually, a high percentage of the loyalist marines from the traitor legions in the Horus Heresy (boy, that's a mouthful to say) were marines that were created directly by the Emperor--not marines that were created from their newly found primarch.

As I recall, the only real difference between a Marine from before the finding of his Legion's Primarch and after was from where they were recruited. They still have the same genetic heritage- directly from their Primarch. The Primarchs came from the Emperor, and the Marines came from the Primarchs, but this doesn't mean that the Marines came directly from the Emperor.

I friggin' love the Inquisition. ^_^

They are a great antagonist. Or protagonist, depending on your bent. Or both, whichever.

 

Maybe its not opinion because I'm Rick Priestly?

Actually, I figured that my post was sufficiently opinionated that everyone who read it would know automatically that it was an opinion. This would be a pretty boring forum if people could only post fact. Its all opinion based on quite a bit of circumstantial evidence, except for everything that I said about Robute Guilliman, which is absolute 100% canonical truth! Gulliman was a sissy and I have proof.

So, Chaplian, since you have now exposed my clever deception, why don't you explain the Cursed Founding if the Traitor geneseed was purged?

 

Maybe its not opinion because I'm Rick Priestly?

Actually, I figured that my post was sufficiently opinionated that everyone who read it would know automatically that it was an opinion. This would be a pretty boring forum if people could only post fact. Its all opinion based on quite a bit of circumstantial evidence, except for everything that I said about Robute Guilliman, which is absolute 100% canonical truth! Gulliman was a sissy and I have proof.

So, Chaplian, since you have now exposed my clever deception, why don't you explain the Cursed Founding if the Traitor geneseed was purged?

Hah hah, ok Inspector Poirot. Unfortunately I don't have quite that much time on my hands and my interest in the theoretical possibilty of using naughty geneseed in the vreation of flawed supermen in a fictional universe has already waned thin. I'm sure someone else will, though.

 

May I point out, dear Mister Phthisis, what I perceive as a small inconsitency in your reasoning?

The Cursed Founding was Cursed, according to your reasoning, because they used Traitor Geneseed.

Now, there was another Chapter that uses Traitor Geneseed, according to your reasoning.. The Grey Knights.

What makes the latter so that they can avoid being cursed for the same reason the former is?

And secondly, by saying "They are most definately made from Death Guard geneseed stock", I would interpret as conveying your opinion, based on putting together some bits of circumstantial evidence, which for all you know may have been written compltely independantlyand never meant to be put together, as fact. I'm not saying it's definately wrong, I'm just saying that the statement is far, far from being definately right.

Oh, and finally... the Cursed Founding may have just been bad luck. In each of the.. 30? foundings, one or two have suffered similar to the Cursed Founding. So it's not a great stretch of the imagination to have one Founding where they ALL went wrong. But that's just conjecture on my part, and tbh, I don't beleive it myself, I'm just putting it forward as another, possible, solution.

GW fluff is left very open-ended for a reason, that each individual gamer is left with the oppurtunity for creating their own army, with canon fluff as a mere guideline. By closing down those open ends, by putting toegether bits of fluff to come up wth 'definate' answers to points left intentionally ambiguous, does nothing more than discourage people from writing their own fluff for those open ends. By all means, try and find out solutions so you can further the depth of your army, or your interpretation of the 40k universe, and put them forward as your interpretation, or the background for your amy. But please, don't then repeat that as the definate, one-and-only answer.

 

I don't think they used Traitor Seed in the Cursed Founding, I'm pretty sure it just says they mixed Geneseed.
So they took some Ultramarines and put it in a blender with some Imperial Fist and got a bunch of mutant freaks.

I would also find it hard to believe that the loyalist Death Guard became the Grey Knights.
No Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, the whole Legion fell to the lure of Chaos cos they were given the chicken pox while in the warp.

 

Chaplain, the least you could do is spend some time expressing your opinion on the topic. I'm not looking for an argument, just courtesy. So far, you have only told me that I'm wrong, but when I ask you to clarify you say you don't have time? I at least have circumstantial evidence, but you have given absolutely none! This is not the first time that I have seen a senior member behave this way in LO. Its not just bad form, its also somewhat rude. IF you are so uninterested and have such little time, then why bother posting on the topic? Right now it seems like you just felt like putting someone down to make yourself look good. You don't go around in real life telling people they're wrong and then walking away without explanation, do you?

Wolf Lord, no need for formalities. Mister Phthisis is my father. :silly:
There's no flaw in my logic there. The Cursed Founding wasn't cursed because of the use of Traitor geneseed. It was cursed because they mixed geneseed, and geneseed doesn't like to be mixed. Not all of the Cursed Founding chapters used Traitor Geneseed either. Most of them used two different loyalist geneseeds. The idea was to replace broken parts of unstable geneseed with parts from more stable geneseed to fill gaps and avoid flaws. The result was that the geneseed behaved in unexpected ways. For example, Raven Guard geneseed mixed with Ultramarines geneseed created marines covered in black feathers. It doesn't take Traitor geneseed to cause problems, and if the Ad Mech aren't careful geneseed mutates or degrades when it is cloned! The longer it is from the Heresy, the harder it is to make new Chapters. (See the Blood Angels and their successors, each new chapter is more debased than the last). The reason that Traitor Geneseed was used, and is being used more often, is that it's quite frankly the most stable geneseed around. While the loyalist geneseed has been active and exposed to chemicals, radiation and cloned hundreds of thousands of times, Traitor geneseed has been laying in stasis in an untouched condition. The geneseed tithe requirement is specifically so that the Ad Mech can monitor each chapter's geneseed for purity, so they don't get another Black Dragons incident. The Ad Mech and Adeptus Terra realize that it wasn't the geneseed that caused the Traitor Legions to turn traitor, they had been used without problems for a couple hundred years before Horus turned. It was the personalities of the primarchs that caused the Heresy. Perhaps the Inquisition would be opposed to it, but the Inquisiton's power isn't limitless. They have wanted to do away with the Space Wolves and Blood Angels for quite some time because of their deviation and haven't yet succeeded. Even with limitless authority, taking on an Space Marine chapter is no easy task.
As for the Grey Knights, the Death Guard geneseed theory is the best one that I have heard yet. So far the only two other theories are that its the Emperor's Geneseed (which can't be because the Emperor doesn't have a geneseed, he's not a primarch and has no progenoid gland) or that its one of the lost primarchs (as if!). Considering that Garro made it to Terra, he was ordered by Malcador along with others to start the Inquisition, and Death Guard geneseed is by far the most stable and functional, why wouldn't Malcador select DG genseeed for the GK? If the shoe fits, wear it.

 

Chaplain, the least you could do is spend some time expressing your opinion on the topic. I'm not looking for an argument, just courtesy. So far, you have only told me that I'm wrong, but when I ask you to clarify you say you don't have time? I at least have circumstantial evidence, but you have given absolutely none! This is not the first time that I have seen a senior member behave this way in LO. Its not just bad form, its also somewhat rude. IF you are so uninterested and have such little time, then why bother posting on the topic? Right now it seems like you just felt like putting someone down to make yourself look good. You don't go around in real life telling people they're wrong and then walking away without explanation, do you?

I'm afraid you've got the only response you're getting on the matter. I was planning on returning tonight to express my opinions just for you - but come on - calling people out? Dress it up how you want - that's what you did. As for my behaviour - I'm afraid I disagree. Being rude would have been saying "You're full of it!". Instead I simply asked you not to dress up fiction as fact. Your response I consider to be rude - I will not apologise for being busy, nor will I be told by ANYONE what I will and will not do. And as for looking good - I don't know about you, but I'm not overly concerned with my image on an internet forum - even one that I love as much as LO. More to the point (as I predicted) another user expressed exactly what I disagreed with in your post - in Herby's post you have your answer.

So do me a favour - grow up a bit and if you desperatly want to draw me into an argument do so by PM, there's a good chap.

 

Oh, it's a very plausible theory, no doubt about that. I only objected to the way you were putting it forward as the definate and only possible article, as though you'd read it in a White Dwarf article no-one else has seen, and you've been sworn to secrecy about your sources .

My personaly theory is that 40k fluff was written without some over-arching, Tolkien-esque story-telling genius who knows the whole story about everything in this make-beleive universe, and that fluff was instead written by lots of different people at different times, often without referencing to every single piece of fluff ever written before about that particular subject, and what was written was just what the writer thought would fit.

This results in circumstantial evidence pointing towards a conclusion that may never have been imagined by the half-dozen or so people who wrote all those different pieces.

Also, even GW canon fluff isn't consistant (sp), so any theory made from it is even less reliable. For example, in the 3rd gen. Blood Angels Codex, Scout Squads couldn't take heavy weapons (well, only one scout squad per army could). This was explained in a little paragraph next to it, saying that BA Scouts weren't newbies, like in most Chapters, but were an addition to Assault Squads, as more Blood Angels than usual have a preference for close combat than bolter work. So, they were the same level of experience as normal Assault Squads and Tactical Squads, but filled a somewhat different role.

This was still alluded to when the plastic SM Scouts came out, the Index Astartes article ahd pics of lots of different Scouts. Most were differntly-coloured clones of each other, all fresh-faced and young, except Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Space Wolves Scouts were depicted as the same as normal, but covered in wolf pelts, and had a face covered in scars and campaign studs. Blood Angels were the same as normal, but the face was covered in scars and campaign studs.

However, in the 4th Gen Codex it says that actually, they are, in fact, Codex newbies.