No inderect fire is only is you don't have line of sight so if you have line of sight use the normal range to kill something like that but if their in the min range it's probaly screwed but I may be wrong

it's the same as a zeal charge for Black templars it goes either way if this is still disputed call the help service

 

No inderect fire is only is you don't have line of sight so if you have line of sight use the normal range to kill something like that but if their in the min range it's probaly screwed but I may be wrong

You're incorrect. If it's within minimum range you CANNOT fire upon it with indirect fire, even if it's in LOS.

However for the Bassie...

If you purchase the Indirect Fire upgrade for a Basilisk, which of course increases the range and gives it a minimum range of 36", does that mean you cannot fire at a unit that is closer than 36 inches, even if you have LOS?

You don't lose the ability to Direct Fire when you purchase the upgrade. You can switch between firing modes much like a defiler can. So if they're within min range, while you cannot hit them with indirect fire you can just switch to direct fire mode and blast 'em.

it's the same as a zeal charge for Black templars it goes either way if this is still disputed call the help service

The "rulez boyz" are about as helpful as an umbrella in hurricane.

 

Hey,

No, guess range is only used when, well, guessing! If you can see the unit you'll be able to fire at them. Remember the age-old tactic of placing one Bassie on each site of your deployment zone to negate "save zones".

 

Wasn't that the same thing?

No, because if you have only one type of fire mode, for example a whirlwind, you can't fire directly can you. Now I don't think there's currently a gun that lacks a direct fire mode and has a minimum range but with the new Ork dex around the corner you never know.

It's a good rule to keep in the back of your mind anyway.

Actually, if you have LOS you cannot use indirect fire!

Care to back that up? If you go and take another look at your rulebook I think you'll find you're quite wrong.

Go and read the subsection on page 31 about firing barrages. Nowhere does it state this.

f you have LOS you use direct fire, but indirect fire is the method used when a gun does not have a LOS to the target and thus must use a different method of getting the shell onto the target, usually by plunging or high-angle (ie over 45 degrees) fire to clear the intervening obstacles.

Again you are incorrect. Some indirect weapons such as the Mortar do not have the ability to switch between two firing modes (in actual fact the majority of indirect weapons lack this feature, only the Defiler Battle Cannon and the Earthshaker have the ability to select firing modes as well as a forgeworld Sentinel). Yes, when in LOS of the enemy it scatters the same as a piece of ordnance that hasn't moved, this DOESN'T remove all of the other rules such as minimum range. If you pick a target that's in LOS and within your minimum range (or over the maximum for that matter) then the shot is wasted.

 

No, because if you have only one type of fire mode, for example a whirlwind, you can't fire directly can you. Now I don't think there's currently a gun that lacks a direct fire mode and has a minimum range but with the new Ork dex around the corner you never know.

Any idea when its coming? I really like to see some changes in the Orks. Poor basterds don't stand a chance! Only KOS is remotely competitive.

 

The way I've always played the Bassie is that it starts off with only the ability to direct fire (i.e. using LOS).

Then when you pay the fee, you get the option to use it with Indirect fire (i.e. no LOS needed).

So if I were to fire at a unit the Bassie could not see (out of LOS) I would be firing Indirectly and thus would use the rules stated for guess range/barrage weapons.

On the other hand if I COULD see the enemy with the bassie, I would fire it normally as a LOS ordnance weapon.

I think we all agree on the principles, it's just that we're not being clear in our explanations. I also think people are assuming that a person would use Indirect fire even when LOS was had, but you wouldn't b/c that contradicts the purpose/tenets of Indirect Fire.

Basically to answer the OP:

Assuming you buy Indirect Fire -

1). If you cannot see the enemy (out of LOS), you are firing indirectly and thus will use those rules.
2). If you can see the enemy (in LOS), you are firing directly and will use those rules.

The bassie (as mentioned) is a rare weapon system that allows the player to select firing modes.

 

So if I were to fire at a unit the Bassie could not see (out of LOS) I would be firing Indirectly and thus would use the rules stated for guess range/barrage weapons.

On the other hand if I COULD see the enemy with the bassie, I would fire it normally as a LOS ordnance weapon.

You still have the option to shoot indirect even if you have Line of Sight. It states clearly in the barrage section of the shooting rules how you handle the scatter of an indirect shot if you have LoS and if you don't... so it's clear that it's possible to shoot indirect at something in LoS.

The advantage of shooting indirect against something you can see: You still cause pinning. The downside: You can't do it within the minimum range, even if in LoS, and you can't do it if you've moved.

 

Personally, from reading the rule on P.28 BGB under "Maximum Range", I don't believe that LOS or no LOS has any bearing on the stated range of the Basilisk. The final five lines of the afore-mentioned paragraph say:

"These are called Barrage Weapons. Such a weapon may have two ranges (for example G12"-48") - in this case the first number is the minimum range for the weapon, the second is the maximum".

There are two uses of the word "is" in there. There can be no arguing therefore that the ranges given in such a fashion for whatever weapon are its parameters. The first one IS the minimum range. The second IS the maximum. Nothing mentioned about whether or not LOS is involved. Therefore it isn't.

E.

 

Another detail that is worth mentioning is that the Bassie it self has not been tampered with, it's the crew that have been given extra training. So there is really no explenation to why they would not be able to fire it directly at the enemy.

 

I don't think much of the problem arises from range, so much as if it's LOS or not. I mean, it'd be near suicide to use a pie plate on a target that is closer than 12", b/c it can still scatter....straight into you!

As for firing indirectly even if you have LOS, why bother? The scatter is the same as firing directly from an ordnance weapon. The only difference is that if you fire it indirectly, you cannot fire it below the Minimum range.

Basically, if anyone by some freak accident got close to your bassie (and you have LOS), you COULD shoot them indirectly, so long as they were outside 12". Or if they were within 12" you could shoot them directly. Just be careful b/c if they're w/in 12" and you put a pie plate on them, you the dice gods ain't favoring you, you're going to kill yourself.

So OP, to summarize (with some new knowledge brought to light by the above posters):

1). If the enemy is out of LOS, use Indirect fire and the rules for barrage weapons.
2). If the enemy is in LOS:
a). And is outside the minimum range for firing indirectly (i.e. as stated above for the mortar, more than 12" away) feel free to fire directly OR indirectly b/c the way to fire it, scatter it, etc. is the same. In this case, if you fire it indirectly, consult the barrage rules. If you fire it directly, consult the ordnance rules.
b). And is INSIDE the minimum range of firing indirectly, than fire directly. And consult the ordnance rules.

That basically answers the quandary of the bassie. Depending on range and LOS, you have 3 courses of action.

Hope this helped and clarified it some.

 

As for firing indirectly even if you have LOS, why bother? The scatter is the same as firing directly from an ordnance weapon. The only difference is that if you fire it indirectly, you cannot fire it below the Minimum range.

Because if you fire indirectly you cause a pinning test, with neg1 if it was an Ordnance blast. That's why.

2). If the enemy is in LOS:
a). And is outside the minimum range for firing indirectly (i.e. as stated above for the mortar, more than 12" away) feel free to fire directly OR indirectly b/c the way to fire it, scatter it, etc. is the same. In this case, if you fire it indirectly, consult the barrage rules. If you fire it directly, consult the ordnance rules.
b). And is INSIDE the minimum range of firing indirectly, than fire directly. And consult the ordnance rules.

Do keep in mind that's is only available to weapons that have both Direct and Indirect forms of fire. i.e. a mortar can only use option 2a)

 

Dude, indirect fire scatters 2d6, and take the highest. So unless the weapon has a special rule(i.e. orbital strikes), you can only scatter up to 6".

You are correct. Good catch, I didn't notice that mistake in Roland's post.

Another point: Yes, RAW, you could fire indirectly when you have LoS. But WHY, in the name of the Emperor's pet chipmunk, WOULD YOU!? WHY would you force yourself to roll an extra die for scatter when you do not have to? EDIT: aside from spartan's point about pinning?

That is actually incorrect. When in LOS you only roll 1d6 for scatter. It's far more beneficial to fire indirectly if you know that the enemy is out of minimum range.

 

That is actually incorrect. When in LOS you only roll 1d6 for scatter. It's far more beneficial to fire indirectly if you know that the enemy is out of minimum range.

OOPS! Good catch to you as well. I frackin' knew better too...;?

Hey Triumph, will there be Covenant Monkeys on September 25th?

 

Ahh forgot about the pinning Triumph. Good point. So I guess it could have some use to fire indirectly when in LOS. Danke for the reminder.

And yes I do know that not all weapon systems have the awesome ability to fire both

As for psichotykwyrm, yeah you're right it's 2d6, take the highest. The point is, if an enemy is close to you (for the sake of the argument under 12") and you fire directly (i.e. like an ordnance weapon), there's the possibility of killing yourself, that's all. I'm basically putting a little caveat out there about the dangers of firing ordnance close to you. Good catch tho on the range, I had 2d6 in my mind when I wrote that, and forgot the take the highest part.

As to the question WHY would you fire Indirectly when you have LOS....good old Triumph answered that the post before you

Anyway I think this may be getting a little away from the OP's question....good discussion though

 

Another reason for fireing indirectly while having LOS could be the increased range.

 

And the MOST important reason to use IDF even when you have LOS is that if you MISS, you still get to place the templete=)

Direct fire miss means no templete (well, large blast) at all, which happens what, 50%, vs your 33% chance of direct hit+33%chance to scatter only 1-2", meaning you still hit the target.

Just something else to think about.
---------------------------

As to whether or not you can direct fire or not within 36", I don't have an answer, will need to consult the codex later.

 

And the MOST important reason to use IDF even when you have LOS is that if you MISS, you still get to place the templete=)

Direct fire miss means no templete (well, large blast) at all, which happens what, 50%, vs your 33% chance of direct hit+33%chance to scatter only 1-2", meaning you still hit the target.

Just something else to think about.
---------------------------

Tarzen, we're taking about Ordnance weapons, not weapons that use the Large Blast template. t

As to whether or not you can direct fire or not within 36", I don't have an answer, will need to consult the codex later.

You can. It's just like using other weapons that have multiple profiles, such as Slannesh sonic weaponry or a Dark Eldar disintergrators. You declare which profile you're using then fire away.

 

Doesn't matter if you are talking about ordinance or not mate. small blast works the exact same when it comes to barrage. What i'm pointing out is that if you direct fire, and miss, then the shot isn't even placed on the board-if you IDF it, then it is ALWAYS placed on the board.

It does Tarzen, when you fire Ordnance weapons the template is always placed on the table as you're using the scatter system regardless of it being fired indirectly or directly (unless you were firing indirect and the original target area of the shot was within min range or over max range, then it's wasted automatically).

Now if we're just talking about a weapon that uses the large blast template, such as a Barbed Strangler, then yes if you miss the template isn't placed anywhere if it was fired directly, as opposed to the template generally hitting somewhere on the table if fired indirectly with barrage rules (regardless of whether or not it hit an enemy unit).

 

Triumph beat me to the explanation. grrrrr.


Anyway, as has been mentioned and brought up, choosing to fire Indirect Fire while maintaining LOS has an advantage (assuming the target is not below the minimum range) and that is the ability to pin.

 

ToM- Just ignore my early morning blathering. For some reason I was thinking the only thing different about Ord was the damage table. Guess that's what I get for playing eldar, marines without WW, and nids=)

That will teach me to post without bgb in hand, while staying up all night with work.

Sorry about all that. Carry on=)

 

tarzen wrong? I'm totally bookmarking this page.

 

I've already printed it on photo paper, and had it framed.8X

 

And even a written admission of error...

Glad I have so many adoring fans to keep me on my toes=)

Cheers gents, and if you ever make it to the great state of UTAH, drop me a line, we'll grab a beer