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the guardsmen's last stand!

I think its an understatement that LOTR messed with their profit, it fell off as soon as the movie hoopla died.

The price ranges on the 40K and the WHF goes up as the company's ENTIRE profits fluctuate (that is LOTR+WHF+WH40K), and if one is a dead horse, but they insist on pushing it, they will suffer profit margins and as a result we will pay more.

What GW must realize is that they are in a niche market BUT its a VERY expendable item, if the economy was to buck, or something cause a call to SAVE money, direct bought GW products would be the first to go, as the expense is purely recreational (at least on my budget).

I honestly agree with the guy who talked about ppl with a LOT of armies, i am one of those guys, but I have been smart about my purchases, I go to independant retailers that offer 20-30 % discounts, shop Ebay, and find a LOT of second hand stuff that is in good condition. I love the hobby, and I will honestly pay 40 for a GOOD model, or a large amount of models... like the cadian troop boxes or more reasonably priced models, like the CSM boxes (nonspecialized) where their charging you25 for 8, as opposed to 35-40 for 7 or 6 of them. Berzerkers are a good deal, etc, things like the monolith or the casket of souls, something that can be a center piece.

However, something like sword brethren that I can convert, or paying extra to get to GW issue death guard for 35 for 7 models when i can get the regular CSM box and convert for 20-25, I will make myself, or buy second hand at a much reduced price. I feel for people who are now getting raped for tyranids, if you recall the genestealers used to come in boxes of 12, now its 8, just so I can get some tentacle face? This happened with the skeletons for the tombkings, they cut out 4 skels from the regular box and toss in an extra sprue but charge the same, or more. That is not good faith business practices, but monopolistic tactics because they have the market cornered, and the reason why more people are going to ebay and procuring in other fashions and I applaud them for that.

Lotr has not only polluted the WD magazine, but its raised prices for the entire Citadel Range and really filled the stores with more unwelcome crap that is simply there to capitalize on the tolkien boom, which is in its death throes.

And as for the models fetching more on ebay, this may be true, someone may find these things to be collectors, ive seen lesser things become valuable (pokemon)... I really do have to wonder what GW is getting profitwise from 2nd hand sales.. wait I know that one... ZERO RETURN.

If someone wants to make money they etablish a loyal customer base, they keep that customer base through good faith business dealings and educated ventures to expend that customer base, not by jumping the gun on a fad, and then punishing the loyal base of customers because their lack of foresight. The LOTR venture failed, just like WH: Firewarrior did on the console. That game was in the 19 dollar rack 1 month after release, only other gaming i can imagine doing that badly is that abortion that was the neo geo. They are damaging their consumer base in an attempt to retain a younger fickle audience of consumer *****s, who are easily swayed by the latest fad. What is GW's main consumer base? (This is a crosssection) Probably preadolescent to young adult white middle to upper class males with some degree of disposable income, either self earned or parent provided. What happens if junior's allowance cant cover the new models bc the price went too high? Junior is going to ebay, third partying it or he is going to take up football. What about the adult with his own income? The second that WH is getting too high in cost for him to keep his budget he will knock it off, or go ebay/third party. GW is charging more, which will make them more per purchase, but blowing themselves out of the water at the same time, as the customers go elsewhere to get their models for a more reasonable price.


Ok, Ill prolly get kicked off for this, and well met, as last time i spoke out against GW and LOTR the thought police (phobos) got sand in his vagina and threatened to kick me off. So

if I dont see yall again... FREE SPEECH PEOPLE!!!
 
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I hope you don't get kicked for this, because I wholly agree. Popularity for GW games is largely spread by word of mouth and simple browsing. I got my friend into 40k by playing two Tau vs. Eldar games with him, where we switched armies. They were 500 point battles, but he was interested in the "customize your army and use your skill with them to win" aspect of 40k. He originally wasn't going to get into it, but a friend of his at college was looking to sell his Eldar, so Kevin decided to buy. Once again, GW sees no profit. Another common way that GW gets business is unintentional from the consumer. There are plenty of kids that play other "geeky" games, such as Dungeons and Dragons, Magic: The Gathering, and my local hobby store, The Keep, sells videogame time at $5 an hour, easily affordable by a teen, and great for playing games such as World of Warcraft. While these kids are in the store, getting magic cards and the like, there will probably be a few 1850 point games going on in the gaming room, and since people are curious, they will wander in and check it out. And they see me with my Urban Tau, Brookie's Iyanden Eldar, Chile's necrons and Wayne's Ultramarines duking it out 2v2. All of our armies are well painted (not professional, but they are appeasing to the eye). The kid will see us using these cool looking guys, and ask about the game, and we explain that it is kinda like starcraft, kinda like D&D and kinda like a model collection, and that we have great fun on a weekly basis. We invite them to come play, and even lend them our armies (that's how Arthur started up Necrons). GW keeps on trying to be up to date and tap into the mainstream youth with fads such as LotR and FireWarrior, but fail to realize that it is their loyal fans, not these marketing schemes, that actually make people interested. DoW was a noticeable exception, but most ventures outside of their fan-base tend to fail.

On the other hand, by doing these fads and creating new (and potentially useless) models, GW raises prices noticeably. Didn't a squad of marines used to be $25? Now it's up to $30, or maybe $35 if I'm not up to times. Blisters were cheaper, Land Raiders cost 2/3 of what they do now... My brother started up in the hobby since we like playing games together and have similar tastes. He kicked off with some Chaos, Necrons and Tau, but then the price raise occurred. Now, he has abandoned the hobby and stays with videogames only. We could've had a blast making armies and playing with/against each other, but money got in the way. I like to support my local hobby shop, since it is a great atmosphere, great staff, and great gaming experience, however, nowadays I find myself browsing e-bay to buy full scale armies of people trying to abandon ship.

In my full and honest opinion, GW needs to stay with what they are good at, and those things are mainly Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000. If they did this, they could focus to make the game better, and the prices would drop. Lowering prices is what would make GW more mainstream, something playable and affordable appeals more than something expensive that they saw in a videogame. I've played racing games and said "I want that car", however, the car turns out to be hundreds of thousands of dollars, so I just stick to m videogames. GW miniature gaming is a unique gaming experience that many people savor, and they need to realise that it is their individuality, not their mainstream-ness, that makes them successful.
 
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I haven't got much to say but I wholly agree with both of you. Many of my friends at school and people I know say that WH is stupid because of the price and that me and my other friends who play it are a bit crazy (well almost). But when they see the actual painted models no matter how good or bad the paint job they think their extremely awesome. I once showed someone a Necron Codex of mine and then told him the price and he went crazy. GW's market would hugely expand as well as their profit (IMO) by lowering prices and getting rid of LotR.

Also, about the Space marines in the combat squad box. In AUS dollars they used to be $22 but they went up to $30. Also, soon I think many people will not be able to buy WH off eBay because people will proably stop buying it and GW will crash or their only market will be spoilt kids with parents who have too much money then they know what to do with (no offence). This may be a little exaggerated but it could well happen over time if GW doesn't take any action.

EDIT: OMG, I just realized that I made post #23, 3.
 
I'd love to be able to agree with you guys, but I'm just too lazy to read all the comments. (anyway, i'm supposed to be working).

Games Workshop are not charging a whole lot for the miniatures, considering the overheads involved in producing prototypes, then moulding the sprues, boxing, shipping, handling, etc. Manufacturing is an expensive business.

But I do think they are pushing it a bit with the extras, the modelling tools, green stuff, flock, paints, brushes, etc. That's where they're just being cheeky...

As for the LOTR falloff, I think we'll see alot of the younger gamers, who started on LOTR move on to something a bit more challenging, like Fantasy or 40k. GW aren't necessarily losing that many customers, they're just buying a different range of products.

GW is a consistently growing company with the largest cut of a profitable industry. Expect more growth from them, and maybe more film tie-ins. Maybe "Narnia", or maybe they'll just start to produce their own 40k movies?
 
I'll throw in the fact here in Canada a SM tactical Box costs $45. I think we have it worst here becuase our money is worth crap (when compaired to the UK and US money). Thats why after I get this ork army finished I'm not buying anymore stuff until they get updated and addtional units are created. They better not increase 40k torrnies to 2000pts from 1700pts, I just dont like enough of the Ork range to buy that many points worth of them.
 
GW as a hobby has prices to suit it as such... Find a hobby that doesn't burn the pocket, sure they are out there but look at the price of sportin equipment nowadays, diving gear, 4x4 mod.s, pc games(depending on where you are)
 
Though this hobby might seem pricy at first I must say it's not.
If you take the price you pay for a boxed set and divide that with the ammount of time you use it (modelling, painting and gaming) and you compare it to other things upon which one spends money... It might just be that I'm quite a slow painter but the money I'm paying for each hour of this hobby is rediciolusly low.
 
Imagine if GW one day stated:
Since our profits are dropping, we've decided to focus only on the things that are guaranteed to make money for us. It is for this reason that we are cutting WHFB, and will solely concentrate only on 40K. Additionally, the only armies available will be space marines and chaos.

How many pissed off gamers would there be?

I'm not trying to defend GW's dumb decision to support LotR, but this is kinda the mindset I imagine them having. They want to support the hardcore LotR flunkies out there, because if they just drop the game, then they drop those players.
 
Is any one a share holder or what not? Perhaps we could get like a bouchore or what not of their mission statement? Info on their production. Future out look and what not.
 
So let them drop the players its not going to be a huge dissapintment because i dont know anyone that still plays it because the movies are now old and nobody cares. I knew 6 or 7 people that played while the movies were out now if you ask one of them to play or paint it they say "I have given up on that" and there is no way they can continue it because no more books and no more movies. That means nothing new and that gets boring. As for Warhammer I have no idea why it costs so much unless they really just want all of that money. Becuase making molds and hiring sculptors is not that expensive. I can make molds at school for nothing and i know if I had to pay for the matriels to make it it would be very cheap. And I also agree they must maintian a loyal fan base because if they dont people leave and then they are screwed. I dont buy anything for the stores anymore i just buy it second hand from people who played before but then gave up but because the costs when to 45 dollars for a tactical squad.
 
more thoughts

I would like to first say that i finished my final first year examination in law school.. whoo and hoo... Now, down to the bid'ness:

"Imagine if GW one day stated:
Since our profits are dropping, we've decided to focus only on the things that are guaranteed to make money for us. It is for this reason that we are cutting WHFB, and will solely concentrate only on 40K. Additionally, the only armies available will be space marines and chaos.

How many pissed off gamers would there be?

I'm not trying to defend GW's dumb decision to support LotR, but this is kinda the mindset I imagine them having. They want to support the hardcore LotR flunkies out there, because if they just drop the game, then they drop those players."

Ok, Mobius, this isnt an attack on you at all, but the highlighted and underlined part says it all. flunkies. The lotr following may be small, hell it may be large, but apparently, its not biting. If the lotr game was selling SO well, it would be lowering the cost of production by providing GW with another avenue of positive cashflow, ergo, if they were smart and economically mindful of their consumers, prices would slightly downshift to increase the market.

This has not been the case, GW's prices have gone up every year consistently since LOTR came out, this is AFTER it went down slightliy in the late 90's when the plastics for many of the armies came out (Ive collected all things undead forever), their profit went up as the hobby got more popular. The target audience responded to their move there favorably. The opposite has happened with LOTR, it is a detriment to a company which i have devoted a lot of money to and honestly, that I used to love because to a certain degree they were customer friendly. I used to live right next to Tallahasee Comics and Games While attending sunny Florida State University the past 4 years. I spent EVERY sunday in the gaming shop to play with and against people there. I can honestly tell you that NEVER was there a lotr game being played, and as a matter of fact, the owner pulled the **** after the second year because it was NOT SELLING. AD and D figures got more sales and they were seldomly purchased.

The question that must be asked is this: Are te LOTR flunkies worth the loss of a loyal and consistent fanbase?

Im not saying that GW hasnt pulled complete abortions in 40K and fantasy (squats anyone?) with armies like the sisters of battle, that suck to the extent that they have to rig battle reports, but when an army isnt selling, and they arent getting good customer response (no offense, but theyve been pulled the DE off the shelves) ou cut your losses and go back to R and D. I may be annoyed when the mag is full of the latest army they are hyping, but you know what? I can deal with that, bc Ill either get to scoff at the SOB beating the 13th Company, or watch the brettonians/whomever get battered in a mega battle, or whatever. Sometimes those crappy armies make great models for conversion parts, there is room for interpretation, and worse comes to worse, they can either be killed of via a yearly worldwide campaign, just disappear ala squat, or get jacked up with better stuff and they sell...
Even if Fantasy was to flop for a while, interest wanes, whatever, there is still ways that it can be resurrected. I say this bc WH40K and WHFB are open universe games, meaning that anything can happen. The LOTR isnt like that, its closed universe, theres a specific, definite way everything went down, and honestly, after the third time playing the battle of fruity fairy forest or whateever, it loses its appeal.

My issue with GW is this, prices go up for ALL lines when LOTR flops, not just for that line of products. As such, WHFB and WH40K players suffer, the staple audience and customer of GW. I said before the GW consumer base is VERY limited, white middle/upper class prepube to young adult usually single, with disposable income. The second it gets too expensive, they do one of three things:
1. they go to ebay: GW gets no profit, and their product is sold at 1/2 value or less.
2. They go to a 3rd party distributer: Again, GW may make money off the initial distributor sale, but in the quantitiy that these guys sell, the range of their market and the client base they build, the distributer gets payed, the client gets his fiz and GW gets financially sodomized.
3. Kid abandons the hobby entirely: this is worse case scenario and best case. on the left, the kid goes into sports, gets a chick, etc. finds greener pastures, to the negative effect, the client is lost, probably not to return.

Either way, GW loses another customer, because in essence they are disrespecting their customer base, and selling out for a specialized markey based on a bubble that has long since burst. Its just business ethics, of which I regret to say, GW doesnt seem to have. But its to THEIR detriment. Let em be greedy, I dont give a flying F### either way, bc I ebay and third party and I am purely satisfied and get my money's worth, I suggest you guys do the same.

As a final point, if GW drops LOTR, good for them, theve pulled their heads out of their ass, if they dont, you know what, I feel no sorrow or compulsion to aid them, add to their income or anyhting like that, bc as we can see, GW obviously doesnt care enough baout their real essential fan base that built them up to treat them with dignity and respect.

PS: To be honest, I liked the movies, and enjoyed the books, Hell Ill even go as far as saying that when the magazine began to put in lotr stuff, i did not particularly mind as it was minor and not what it is now. It is pervasive, utterly and wholly pervasive. I cannot stand lotr nowadays, i cant enjoy the memories of being thirteen and reading the books, hell I cannot use my imagination for it anymore, as I used to because all I see is viggo f***in mortensen and steven tyler's hot daughter instead of what I always imagined as the people in the book. GW has honestly beat the horse to death.
 
You get a rep point

Now that I think of it, no-one ever played LotR at the Keep either. It was lots of 40k with a touch of WHFB. You're right that LotR is closed, it has a predetermined storyline, whereas the theme of 40k is that there are a bunch of different aliens, all over the galaxy, and they want to kill each other. You can make your own justifications, put catachans on a desert world, cityfight with anything! Tau and Tyranids can be allied (ie me and my friend vs. those two SMurfs), models can be enormously customized, and there is a wide variety of appeal with their army diversity. Hordes of Tyranids, elite space marines, Terminator-esque Necrons, and Orks cause they're orks. Everyone knows orks, and everyone loves orks. LotR makes me think more of D&D than WHFB, you've got your characters doing quests against a small band of baddies. Except there's no leveling up, no bartering, or any of that. And a fight between Samwise Gamgee and the big frickin spider isn't exciting when you move them base to base and just start rolling dice. As I've said before, and people have mentioned, people hear about 40k from current 40k players, nothing else. A friend will see your awesome Tau army and inquire, you'll give him the rundown on how you make and customiz your army list to your own style, and he'll go "That's freakin' awesome". Then I mutter "oh, by the way, it's $30 for 8 guardians." And he goes "WTF!!! damn, looks like I won't be playing". GW needs to stick with their current customers as it is this group of people that inducts more consumers into their ring. By trying to "draw in" people with fads, they are just losing money when the fad dies. Oh course, GW will never read this thread (or at least with any consideration), so all of my angst is in vain.:O
 
big ups

Yo man,
Im glad you agree with me, I think that lotr's biggest problem is the lack of things that even make it less plausible than D and D, but whatever, leave the GW fools to their fantasies, thankfully ebay works for me.

Just because the thread wont get read my chambers or gavin or dureke, etc. that doesnt mean that we dot have opinions, and lemme tell you, as a loud mouthed cuban, i have no problem telling the GW dude that his new system is F-ed. We should all do the same, not to be petty, not to be asses, but to salvage the game we all know, and love.
 
If the lotr game was selling SO well, it would be lowering the cost of production by providing GW with another avenue of positive cashflow, ergo, if they were smart and economically mindful of their consumers, prices would slightly downshift to increase the market.
It’s called inflation! + an unstable global marking...rising oil prices etc...

The LOTR isnt like that, its closed universe
That maybe but it does have many thousand years of history behind it which will last GW many many years to come. When they have done all that maybe they will re-release and we will get veteran elf spearmen >.<

My issue with GW is this, prices go up for ALL lines when LOTR flops
Perhaps you should read the annual report...the LOTR range will stay constant now as the movie is well over a year old and anyone who was in it for a fad as already left.

Your beef should be with GW bringing out yet another SM re-release while the orc & elder codex's squander...At least with LOTR, the models are going to new places...
 
(reiterate what i said before)
cough
remind all to the fact that lotr is not whfb or wh40K
its the harry potter of the gaming universe...
(reiterate my above posts, with panace)
 
Well i have to agree with you about LoTR but I would have to disagree about fantasy. Since fantasy was the original if im not mistake they would never get rid of it besides it is game that requires more cunning and is much more challenging a game. That is probably why it is also not as popular. For example the tipical 40K army dosen't have special movement rules such as in Warhammer so not as many play as it is more complicated and takes longer. I thought that LOTR was a bad idea from the start simply for one fact. THE STORY HAS ENDED WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS. so if you compare that to the other games you find a fundamental difference the other games don't end. Sure they change but that is why they are as popular as they are. Personally I like the story of LoTR but I think the models and game are not good unless you just like a boxed board game. however the other games are different.

If GW lowered their prices they could possibly increase demand but they would have t lower prices a lot. It is simple economics as demand goes up so do prices as demand goes dow so do the prices. Unfortunately the prices are on an upswing but the again so many campaigns and projects are launched one right after another so I expect the rise in prices, and if you want to use ebay feel free. But GW is a busines they need profit and survive off it otherwise their would be no point to this.

GW is not greedy they are just not the brightest business men, sure the LoTR made a lot of money during the time the movies were comming out bu they should have had a grand finale when it was still largely popular and played much more often. This would have generated money and allowed the people who worked on and who are still working onthe project to be more useful, sorry if this just sounded like rant
 
I think you guys missed the point a bit on LOTR. GW could have easily made zero profit on this and come away satisfied (if not smiling). For 3-4 years there anything and everything LOTR was hot. GW jumped on this and produced an attractive game (it wasn't that bad) which was relevant to their own backgrounds (it was the inspiration to many of the original games developers). It was a great way to introduce new gamers (and not just young kids) to the hobby, as well as explore new sculpting styles, rules mechanics and production situations (i.e can we produce 2/3 new armies a year?).
And- if you think this hobby is steep, just weigh it up against others. What's a 360 going to knock you back? Plus games? How much is a good PC? Ever try scuba diving? Any sports that requires specialised equipment?
Just mull it over guys (and girls)...
 
i dont think it sounded like a rant at all. Although i do wish to clarify that i never said that fantasy was less than 40K, I agrree with u in that fantasy has a variety of things that dont exist in 40k, I believe that both games have their own benefits, and also are part of an open universe. We dont know what will happen, eldrad may return, nagash will come back and fight, etc. horus may be cloned, etc. Whatever. With the lotr, there is no real imaginative element involved, it is the SAME thing as you will see in the book, and as opposed to warhammer, lotr has a shelf life, that of the movies, movie gone, profit gone.

its truly a simple matter that they refuse to grasp, and its costing us and them in the long run.


There are other specialist games they make that dont necessarily deal out as much but they are related to 40 and fantasy, epic, warmaster etc. it all stems from 40k or the original rogue trader. The same rules apply though, there can ALWAYS be another war of armageddon, long after yarrick and ghazkul are dead, bc the story is yet to be written.. you cant do this with the lotr, I mean ****, what fun would it be to refight the battle of the buldge 90 million times?

Same goes for heir compe ventures. firewarrior FLOPPED. I was stupid enough to buy it, and I was kicking myself when i spent a third of my weekly college library paycheck to get it and a month later it was on the bargain rack new and used. To be honest, GW sometimes surprised me, I thought dow was going to flop, but when I saw what the game was, i was in it.. why? I can fight the aliens in battle any way i want, no neccessary rules... no mode you must follow.

lotr plays more like mousetrap, you KNOW what is going to happen, your just spending more time ****ering with the terms.

This is not to talk smack about board games, as I still love hero quest and space hulk very much.... lotr is a diff story though...

Remember, after the starwars movies lose steam, lucasfilms pulls all advertisement but directed advertisements, for specific purposes. LOTR movies are over, and while a CRAPLOAD may be sold at the time of the movie, interest will wane and you are left with a LOT of overstocked crap.

I would honestly have no problem with the lotr if it didnt effect me, namely stay the hell out of wd and dont have a bearing of price for my staple wh and 40K.
 
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<Sighs>

its costing us and them in the long run.
Have u read the financial results for 2005?????????????????? GW is down from last year but still up on the proceeding 3...how is it costing anyone?

what fun would it be to refight the battle of the buldge 90 million times
We don't re-fight the same battles over and over again just as we don't in WFB or 40k...

I would honestly have no problem with the lotr if it didnt effect me, namely stay the hell out of wd and dont have a bearing of price for my staple wh and 40K
I think you still would have a problem :yes: , but its does not have to affect you...I know its a thought outside the box and may frighten some people............maybe just maybe........TURN THE PAGE?
 
Something to take into account for anyone who likes computer/console games and thinks GW miniatures are expensive:

New release console price:
- At least 500 bucks for something like the xbox.(700 if its Sony - greedy buggers lol)
- About $110 (AU) for a launch title.
- About 70 dollars for each extra controller.
- Any other add ons - memory cards etc.
You're looking at upwards of $1000 (AU) easy and although collecting a massive GW army of 3,000 points or so might be a similar cost, you don't actually have to buy anything else from then on in - you have your army. The above price is only the launch price approximation. Most people buy and extra 10 games or so after the console has come out.

GW is a cheap hobby once you think about it.
 
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