Hi, one of my friends, who plays Dwarfs, wants to make a Gyrocopter based off of a triplane. Now he really wants to make the plane and pilot based off of the Red Baron, and to this end, he's considering using an Iron Cross on the side of the plane. Since he doesn't have an LO account, he wants me to post this: Do you think this would be acceptable, or, like the swastika, is it going to offend somebody?
catbarf
Iron Cross?
Neither of them should offend anybody. It is a historical mark for a themed army. I was considering it myself. My friend uses the Iron Crosses all the time. They are used in 40K a lot, and still used in the military today. There should be no reason for any one to take offense.
Lance
Lance
Iron Cross? Nobody will be offended. It didn't represent Nazis, so therefore doesn't link to genocide.
The swastika, on the other hand, is debatable. I'd recommend not doing it just in case.
The swastika, on the other hand, is debatable. I'd recommend not doing it just in case.
Doesn't the Iron Cross have some connotation with the Maltese cross, as in the Knights Templar?
Either way, I would be really offended if someone put Swastikas on their army.
Either way, I would be really offended if someone put Swastikas on their army.
I was thinking about putting swastikas on mine, but the real swastikas. The ones before Hitler tainted their meaning. And anyone who opposed it could be angry in their ignorance.
Lance
Lance
Yup the Hindu goodness. My friend has a coin from the early 1930's of the World Fair. Really cool. It's got a horse shoe, four leaf clover, a wishbone?, and a swastika. It made me really friggin happy.
Lance
Lance
i wouldn't use swastikas. i agree completely that it's a) a matter of historical accuracy and not a comment on your own personal reflection of ideology or b) it could be a seperate meaning attached, but alas, people are morons. and morons can get infuriated too. i just wouldn't want to hassle with idiots who wouldn't get off my case for it.
the german armed forces still use the cross you're talking about on their airplanes:
http://www.flyconsult.ch/dtalfp.jpg
The finnish armed forces also used the swastika:
http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Productspotlight/Finns/FI160-05.jpg
But i agree, the swastika in my opinion is still a big no-no, even when you turn it around like so:
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/swastika.gif
or shorten it like the finnish one.
on a side note, this article details about hindu swastikas:
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html
http://www.flyconsult.ch/dtalfp.jpg
The finnish armed forces also used the swastika:
http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Productspotlight/Finns/FI160-05.jpg
But i agree, the swastika in my opinion is still a big no-no, even when you turn it around like so:
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/swastika.gif
or shorten it like the finnish one.
on a side note, this article details about hindu swastikas:
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html
Even without being a "moron" I'd be rather irritated on someone painting svastikas on their army. To claim "It's the real one, not the nazi defiled one" would really not make me even reconsider my irritation, maybe even just strengthen it. So the Finns used it too you say? And why if I may ask?
There is no such thing (to my knowledge) as the "original" svastika. That was the reason Hitler picked it, it appeared in most cultures but the Jewish. So he turned it into a anti-Jew symbol and that is what it means to most people today. To go wisemouthing against such an obvious point by showing a coin from the 30:s (c'mon man, the thirties... like that was before all the bad things:shifty: ? ) or call them "moron" due to their lack of historical knowledge.
You might just as well call someone a word that has changed meaning during the years, and when the person gets upset you go on tell them the you meant the "original"-whatever.
There is no such thing (to my knowledge) as the "original" svastika. That was the reason Hitler picked it, it appeared in most cultures but the Jewish. So he turned it into a anti-Jew symbol and that is what it means to most people today. To go wisemouthing against such an obvious point by showing a coin from the 30:s (c'mon man, the thirties... like that was before all the bad things:shifty: ? ) or call them "moron" due to their lack of historical knowledge.
You might just as well call someone a word that has changed meaning during the years, and when the person gets upset you go on tell them the you meant the "original"-whatever.
The Maltese Cross, with it's connections to the Luftwaffe and WW I, I would say is perfectly fine. Germany might have been the 'bad guy' of WW I but they were almost a victim of circumstance.
Finland was one of Nazi Germanys allies for a large portion of WW II, so saying it's alright because they used it is a bit of a stupid statement.
The Svastika has been forever tainted by it's connection to the Nazis, unless you were doing a very Hinduistic army and used them in a minor role. Using them otherwise will of course lead to the conclusion of a Nazi link in peoples minds.
Finland was one of Nazi Germanys allies for a large portion of WW II, so saying it's alright because they used it is a bit of a stupid statement.
The Svastika has been forever tainted by it's connection to the Nazis, unless you were doing a very Hinduistic army and used them in a minor role. Using them otherwise will of course lead to the conclusion of a Nazi link in peoples minds.
Disclaimer: catbarf takes no responsibility for the following post:
Thanks. I didn't know if I'd be able to use it, because I just figred that using a triplan based of the Red baron might get flak just for the connotations. altho I wonder about the Hindu swastika- hypothetically speaking, d'ya think it would b possible to make it far enough from the nazi one to be acceptable?
Thanks. I didn't know if I'd be able to use it, because I just figred that using a triplan based of the Red baron might get flak just for the connotations. altho I wonder about the Hindu swastika- hypothetically speaking, d'ya think it would b possible to make it far enough from the nazi one to be acceptable?
The Swastikas historical background from before the Nazi party is irrelevnt. People assoiciate it virtually exclusively with Hitler and anti-semetism regardless of whatever it was intended to represent.
This kind of thing were people call each other "ignorant" or "morons" really pisses me off. Just because someone reads a Wikipedia article doesn't give them the right to act like a supercilious jerk. There's a kid in my civics class who's convinced that the Holocaust didn't happen, and then there's the guy who asked me if I were a "Jew hat" at during Passover. I get enough crap without this.
This kind of thing were people call each other "ignorant" or "morons" really pisses me off. Just because someone reads a Wikipedia article doesn't give them the right to act like a supercilious jerk. There's a kid in my civics class who's convinced that the Holocaust didn't happen, and then there's the guy who asked me if I were a "Jew hat" at during Passover. I get enough crap without this.
The swastika is an utter no go, its like putting the eight point star or mark of Khorne on Black Templars and giving them daemonic mutations and still calling them loyalist marines.
The Iron Cross is quite fine though, I've seen it on loads of GW models with no complaints at all.
The Iron Cross is quite fine though, I've seen it on loads of GW models with no complaints at all.
Alright man, whatever. It's your army, so do whatever you want with it. Just don't be surprised if people take it the wrong way, and respect their right to do so.
If they get mad, just tell them that if they ever play black templars, they are hypocrites. Seeing as how that is their symbol (basically, maltes, iron, same dif).
-The God of all Machines
-The God of all Machines
personally i wouldnt use the teutonic cross on a gyrocopter, but not because of any historic connotation, but because its not very dwarf-like, its more Empire, in fact the Empire knights use a very similar cross design
Hey, its just one model, its for a theme, just as long as he doesn't go overboard with it.
...That being said, i wouldn't recommend taking it to Israel. :|
...That being said, i wouldn't recommend taking it to Israel. :|
People seem to be getting confused over this. the maltese cross and the swastika are two completely seperate images.
THe 'iron cross' is the medal the maltese cross is the shape. its used everywhere in GW products so is fine.
The swastika was not only used by hindus but was a symbold used by many germanic tribes, lok at and early anglo saxon pottery and youll come across it eventually. If used in an army of people wit black uniforms and red armbands thats too far, i only a NAzi symbol when on a white background surrounded by red IMO other than that it isnt that bad. In a guard army id be iffy though if someone turned up with a guard ary in black uniforms with red armbands and had an imperial eagle in the centre noone would care. if an army based on the anglosaxons was built using dwarfs etc then use of the swastika where appropriate would be fine. anyone who looks at an army and sees the odd swastika with no other nazi conotations and says you are an evil anti-semite is being a bit too judgemental. Saying that there is enough symbols and imagery in many armies that GW do to not need a swastika.
Basically there is nowhere really that there is need to use the swastika, the maltese cross on the other hand go for it. With the ridiculous amount of guard armies based on WW2 germans i dont thing a gyrocopter with a maltese cross is going to cause any offence.
People are also getting hidiously mixed up with the two wars. WW1 had nothing whatsoever to do wiht NAzis in the slightest. Redbaron, triplanes WW1 nazi's WW2.
A
THe 'iron cross' is the medal the maltese cross is the shape. its used everywhere in GW products so is fine.
The swastika was not only used by hindus but was a symbold used by many germanic tribes, lok at and early anglo saxon pottery and youll come across it eventually. If used in an army of people wit black uniforms and red armbands thats too far, i only a NAzi symbol when on a white background surrounded by red IMO other than that it isnt that bad. In a guard army id be iffy though if someone turned up with a guard ary in black uniforms with red armbands and had an imperial eagle in the centre noone would care. if an army based on the anglosaxons was built using dwarfs etc then use of the swastika where appropriate would be fine. anyone who looks at an army and sees the odd swastika with no other nazi conotations and says you are an evil anti-semite is being a bit too judgemental. Saying that there is enough symbols and imagery in many armies that GW do to not need a swastika.
Basically there is nowhere really that there is need to use the swastika, the maltese cross on the other hand go for it. With the ridiculous amount of guard armies based on WW2 germans i dont thing a gyrocopter with a maltese cross is going to cause any offence.
People are also getting hidiously mixed up with the two wars. WW1 had nothing whatsoever to do wiht NAzis in the slightest. Redbaron, triplanes WW1 nazi's WW2.
A
The symbol of a cross found on German vehicles is the Balkan Cross or Balkankreuz, not the maltese cross! Gosh!
You don't want to offend the Maltese...they are tuff little buggers...
Use any any symbols you want, if people choose to be offended they have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
If I have to suffer the christian cross and that stupid fish in silence....I digress....
Everybody's ancestors got thumped by someone...get over it!
A symbol does not an ideology make.
You don't want to offend the Maltese...they are tuff little buggers...
Use any any symbols you want, if people choose to be offended they have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
If I have to suffer the christian cross and that stupid fish in silence....I digress....
Everybody's ancestors got thumped by someone...get over it!
A symbol does not an ideology make.
It might not "make" the ideology but it might well communicate it.
Reminds me of when Simba gets hit in the head by Rafiki (The LionKing) and Rafiki says it's history so he should not let it bother him...
To use the word "ancestor" makes it feel like if it was back in ancient times this happened but it's what, 60 years ago? I thought one used the word for people who lived way back, not grandparents and such.
"What are you doing this weekend?"
"I'm going to my ancestors for dinner."
Anyway, the question asked by Catbarf's friend was if people might be offended by it and clearly some people would.
Sure you can say, he should play the selfrigteous un-empathic game and just tell them to get over it, since he really doesn't care about someones relatives and/or grandparents being killed. Tell them to accept that this sybol is just a few lines arranged in a cool way, it has no other meaning...
One can even start saying that about words. It's just a few letters put together, I cannot be held responsible if someone thinks they actually mean something. Everybody has been told stuff about their mom..
Mine didn't. At least not the ones I've ever met and here in lies the difference. If my grandmother would have been locked away for years, suffering in a deathcamp by an organisation that still exsists and someone came waving their symbol around for thinking it is "cool" and that person then told me to "get over it". Not really sure how I'd react, though I know I would feel offended.
1 of my grandfather was sent to norway for forced labor and my other grandfather had to go in hiding not to get deported as well. My grandmothers then both had to right a bike with wooden wheels 100 miles to find food. 1 already had 2 children at this point.
Not to mention what would have happend had they been jewish.
My grandparents never hated the germans. But the swastika is the symbol for the regime who did this.
Not to mention what would have happend had they been jewish.
My grandparents never hated the germans. But the swastika is the symbol for the regime who did this.
here here.
Its the swastika that shouldnt be used, the 'balkan' cross is the symbol of many people who were not Nazi's.
A
PS: Killer Clown have you got any info about this Balkan cross im just quite interested in the symbol and how far it goes back!
Its the swastika that shouldnt be used, the 'balkan' cross is the symbol of many people who were not Nazi's.
A
PS: Killer Clown have you got any info about this Balkan cross im just quite interested in the symbol and how far it goes back!
I think a lot of these crosses come from medieval military orders - the Maltese cross is the cross of the Knights of St John (the Knight's Hospitallers) who had a base on the island. I'm pretty sure the German iron cross is the symbol of the Teutonic Knights who were based in Germany (I'm sure i read somewhere that their headquarters was actually called Marienburg!)
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