I would say no, because, technically, those Gifts that are already a part of the Possessed don't contribute to the total of 51+ points. They are included in what you pay for the unit, and won't count. IMO, anyways.

 

I just found it in the codex (under the Lord's entry). But as a fluff-matter this theoretical Daemonic Prince-issue lingers...

 

Hm. Fluffwise, I doubt it.

The Lord would kill anyone rivalling his power, that isn't completely trusted, like an Lt.

 

I guess you missed the subtelties of the lieutenant fluff entry, then.

Anyway, The 50pts is only a guideline: daemon princing is only a modelling aspect. Go for it.

It makes no difference to the game whether it is a daemon prince or not, and so I doubt, as long as you keep WYSIWYG, that any opponent will have a problem in you using a daemon prince as an aspiring champion.

As I said, the 50 pt limit is just a guideline to stop people going crazy and making a thoroughly un-daemonic lord then making him a prince. As long as you partially daemonise the champion that you want to have as a prince, i'm sure it will be fine.

Fluffwise, not such a great idea, but still possible. Generally only the most exalted could ascend to daemonhood (there are fluff entries about how after several hundred years of service, a renegade chapter was finally rewarded with their lord becoming a prince, and how they are going to own...), but you could always make fluff excuses. Use your imagination.

 

It makes no difference to the game whether it is a daemon prince or not, and so I doubt, as long as you keep WYSIWYG, that any opponent will have a problem in you using a daemon prince as an aspiring champion.

It actually does make a difference to the game - according to the 4.1 FAQ, if a model has more than 50 points of daemonic gifts, he counts as a daemon. That means all the daemonhunter wargear affects him, as does the eldar ghosthelm, etc. So your aspiring champion or whatever could be put at a great risk...

LoC

 

Um.....isn't this a moot point since as a possessed marine he gets affected by the daemonhunter gear anyways?(EDIT: Hmm. Not sure on this as I haven't found any table anywhere in the CSM, DH or their faqs indicating exactly what is and what isn't affected)

But in answer to your 1st question Andusciaddius what I've found is that while the others may be on their way to becoming demon princes it is only in the Chaos Lord's entry that it states this as applying. Ie:It doesn't even mention it for a Lieutenant. As a further note that might help, only the Lord can buy stature indicating a further tendency that only Lords can become true Demon Princes.

 

The possessed champion already has a couple of gifts before accessing the armoury, so the sum may exceed the 51 points. Will this make it possible to claim that title/ suffer from whatever weapon only makes it worst against princes (if any such weapon/ power exists)eventhough he is but a "squad-upgrade"?

I'm pretty sure that possessed already have the drawback of beeing counted as deamons, so "whatever weapon only makes it worst against" anything clasified as a deamon, will have the same effect on the possessed already.

I make this assumption because in the legion spesific rules section where the deamons are limited, IE Alpha legion, and Iron Warriors, It makes mention that possessed and Princes are not restricted.

I don't see why they would need to tell you that possessed are not restricted if they weren't classed as deamons.

So tecnically, your possessed AC could have the equivilant of 70 points of Daemonic gifts, which I guess would technicly put him well on the path to daemonhood, but for gameplay purposes, he's classed as a deamon before all the fun optional upgrades are applied anyway.

 

So tecnically, your possessed AC could have the equivilant of 70 points of Daemonic gifts, which I guess would technicly put him well on the path to daemonhood, but for gameplay purposes, he's classed as a deamon before all the fun optional upgrades are applied anyway.

Technically, the costs are already included in the models' cost, and therefore would not count towards the Daemonic Gifts/abilities. They would still only be able to take 50 points of Daemonic Gifts, etc. which would mean that they don't count as a Daemon Prince.

And where is it stated that Possessed Marines count as Daemons? I can't find anything in the codex stating as much, but I might just be overlooking it. A reference would be appreciated.

You can't make assumptions around the rules, however; they have Daemonic qualities, that is why they aren't allowed in armies such as Alpha Legion, etc. They are not affected by anti-Daemon weaponry from anything that I can tell.

 

You can't make assumptions around the rules, however; they have Daemonic qualities, that is why they aren't allowed in armies such as Alpha Legion, etc. They are not affected by anti-Daemon weaponry from anything that I can tell.

It is just an assumption, as your right, as far as I can tell there is no rule in the Chaos codex that states that they count as deamons. I was jut infering it based on the fact that they are allowed in alpha legion, and Iron Wariors where as other deamons are not.

However, upon further review of the Daemon hunters codex, It states that Possessed are counted as being Deamons for the purposed of any weapons or abilities that effect deamons(DHC, 20).

And while the cost for the daemonic abbilites has already been included in the cost of the possessed, I was just more a matter of fluff stating that you could get 70 points of daemonic upgrades on a possessed AC, although I guess I wasn't all to clear on that. actually I was about as clear as mud on that last point.

 

Well, assumptions and inferring things can definitely get things confused in the world of Games Workshop. Thanks for the reference to the DH codex; does it state that they count as such for all weapons/wargear affecting Daemons, or just weapons/wargear from the DH codex?

If it's meant to be all weapons/wargear, from any codex, I'd wish they'd put it in a FAQ, as it doesn't state as much in the Eldar codex (that I know of), nor the Chaos codex, etc. What happens when the two fight? The Chaos player's Possessed would be protected, etc.

A clear up would be nice. ^_^

 

From the wording, it would appear that it just applies to the DH codex, The exact wording is,

"Throught this codex the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:"

and possessed are listed after that, along with eveything else thats obviously a deamon.

as for the clearup, I have ot aggree, far be it from GW to let the chaos players know what counts as a Daemon...

 

It's in there, but I can't remember where. . .
However, all the legion rules that forbid/restict daemons, (alpha legion, night lords, & iron warriors) say their restriction, then make a specal point to say that daemon princes & posessed can be used as normal.
Also it's in the daemonhunters codex section for the armies specal rules it specifies to them what exactly couts as a daemon, and they're on the list. So the anti-daemon abilities work against them regardless of what the chaos codex perhaps fails to say.

 

From the wording, it would appear that it just applies to the DH codex, The exact wording is,

"Throught this codex the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:"

and possessed are listed after that, along with eveything else thats obviously a deamon.

as for the clearup, I have ot aggree, far be it from GW to let the chaos players know what counts as a Daemon...

Ah.

Well, then it's safe to say that the term "Daemon" as said in the DH codex does include Possessed Marines; however, the term "Daemon" in other codecies, such as the Eldar codex, does not apply to anything that doesn't specifically count as a Daemon according to the Chaos codex (even if Possessed should, technically, count).

Hopefully, in future editions of the 'dex, it will be much more clear.

Thanks again for the reference. :yes:

 

Check out the skirmish level Lost and the Damned game in Black Gobbo #4 for aspiring demon princes (good luck getting him into 40k though )

 

Just to clear up, i was referring to the statement that 50 points of daemonic gifts makes no difference at all - not necessarily in the context of the possessed. Think of it as a side point, that's all. Not something that makes the possessed "double-daemonic" or something
:tongue:. Now that could be a drawback...

LoC

 

Ah.

Well, then it's safe to say that the term "Daemon" as said in the DH codex does include Possessed Marines; however, the term "Daemon" in other codecies, such as the Eldar codex, does not apply to anything that doesn't specifically count as a Daemon according to the Chaos codex (even if Possessed should, technically, count).

Hopefully, in future editions of the 'dex, it will be much more clear.

Thanks again for the reference. :yes:

I actually feel pretty stupid now, I just checked the CSM Faq, and it lists off what counts as deamons in the 5th point down the list, And indeed possessed are counted as deamons. no need whatsoever for the Dh reference.