[Axle_Gear]

If the only way for you and your entire species to survive was by digesting all organic matter would it be evil? If any other faction had to do this to survive do you beleive they would not do it? Their inability to make a moral decision on right or wrong helps this argument, they do not see anything wrong with what they do, they just kill so that they can live.

I think you're overthinking this here, Kevin. I was simply stating that the Tyranids are not good however you try to look at it. Even so, with all the different genes they've absorbed, and the fact that they possibly traveled all the way from another galaxy, it's quite likely that the Tyranids could advance to a form that does not require them to voraciously devour all biomatter in their path. They're unprovoked invaders. Due to their nature, I would put them on the sliding scale of Good-vs-Evil around where flashfloods and rat plagues are; they're more an 'event' than an entity, but they are by no measure good. Destruction for one's own sake is still destruction, which is why many like to refer to WH40k as having a grey-black or black-black morality system; everyone's done horrible things, it's just a matter of how often and for what reasons that determines how good or evil they are. The Tau, again, usually offer their enemies a chance to surrender and become allies before snuffing them out, something very rare in the 40k universe.

 

[soul of the brood]

Oh please guys everybody knows the Tau are gonna corrupt eventually ;P
that aside, Tyranids, I dont really see how they are evil, theyr just...hungry.

 

[Leafblower]

Orks:
"Green is best"


nuff said.

 

[Korona]

The Orks have no morality so they can't be good, their only purpose is to satisfy their desires for combat and plunder. They are bascially hedonists like the Dark Eldar.
The Tau use psychic mind-control to achieve their harmony. Robbing people of free will is immoral and the bulk of their peons aren't acting of their own volition so they can't be moral either.
The Tyranids have no free will so they can't be moral. The Hive mind is driven by its own hungers so it is also essentially a hedonist. Even worse it is a self-destructive hedonist because it is willing to eat at an unsustainable level. It's pretty much insane.
The Imperium has plenty of dreadful people but the Sisters of Battle seem to hold themselves to the most extreme moral standards. Their purity of faith and strength of will lets them reach space-marine levels of performance, if only for a turn. They are pretty much the exemplars of what "unmodified" humans can become.

 

[soul of the brood]

A swarm of bees dont really have a free will either but that doesnt make them evil...(EVIL bees! go awaaay!!!*runs*)
I like to think of them as a force of nature
this whole universe is pretty much scred so lets start again shall we? *nom nom nom nom nom*
therefore, tyranids are good

 

[Korona]

Just because something isn't evil doesn't mean it's good. Animals have no understanding of their actions so they have no moral dimension one way or another.
The Nids do have the Hive Mind though, and it should appreciate what it is doing. But that really just raises the question of why? Why travel for so long just to eat up the universe. Why not downsize your population until the universe is able to support you indefinitely? The Hive Mind really seems to be a blunderer on a strategic level and evil on a moral one due to the willfull and pointless destruction it causes.

 

[soul of the brood]

hmm, well think of them as a form of nature, as stated before, this is pretty much a discussion of 'least evil' for obvious reasons.
the hive mind is not one entity as afr as we know, but a collection, or a pool of thaughts, all shared through synapse from every singly tyranid organism.
personally I think that the tyranids were created by the old ones as a 'self destruct button' sort of thing, everything the old ones have created is pretty much screwed over now, so they want to start again, nids are here to clean the slate, but thats a topic for another thread.
nature cant be evil really, So once again, nids for lest evil!! (or perhaps orks)

 

[avatar of khaine]

Who fights chaos, orcs, tyranids, demons, necrons, and dark eldar whenever they appear?

Who have actually shown mercy?

Who never invade a world unless they own it?

Who frequently help out the imperium despite the imperium's dislike of them?

Who were made to fight evil and defend life?

Who make the most beautiful works of art?

Who does all this despite near-extinction?

Eldar.

 

[Korona]

@ Soul, the reason nature is not evil is because it has no self-awareness. Either the Hive Mind is stupid and has no idea about what it's doing or else it's fully aware and thus also stupid and probably evil.

@ avatar the Eldar are totally indifferent to human suffering. That's not really very moral. We don't say the suffering of dogs is irrelevant because they are stupid compared to us. A complete lack of empathy makes them pretty seedy imo. Ultimatly they only care about furthering their own goals. If that means whole worlds must die, well so be it. That's not "good" it's downright psychopathic.

 

[Guest]

I vote Eldar, they are the definitive anti-Chaos, they don't want the war with humans, it's us who cause the problems, by mistrusting everybody. Think about this, if Eldar had wanted humans out of the way, they could have done it long ago, when humans were still crawling about in caves asking for food by going ug! and hitting their women over the head with clubs.
Eldar, defo the Eldar. Humans won't save any xenos, they kill them all, but Eldar will, and have taken in humans, helped humans relocate to other worlds if they don't fight, and even let the inquisition into the 'black library'. So Eldar by definition have to be reasonably good people. The imperium and Tau are Nazis by any other name, the Orks are just brutish morons who fight for no reason, Dark Eldar are slave trading pirate scum, Chaos are plain evil, Necrons are pure nastiness incarnate, and the Tyranids are just hungry, permanently.

 

[Korona]

Yeah that's true of the old 2nd edition era Eldar but they didn't like them being the "good guys" and changed their backstory to make them cold hearted bastards in the more up to date versions of their codex. They are still anti-Chaos and still far-sighted but their reasons have shifted. They don't care about saving Mon-Keigh, they couldn't care less. Their goal is basically the restoration of their empire and their "rightful" place in the galaxy. Chaos just stand in their way. The Humans who are on "their" world are just as much targets for their anger but it's a matter of whoever is the biggest threat.

 

[Blasterdude3]

well, when compared to other armies the tau are easily the most good.
they dont enslave like dark eldar
they avoid war if possible and take peaceful options over anything else, unlike...well pretty much every other race except the eldar and even the eldar will kill u if it meant saving their race in the long run.

 

[Blasterdude3]

Who fights chaos, orcs, tyranids, demons, necrons, and dark eldar whenever they appear?

Who have actually shown mercy?

Who never invade a world unless they own it?

Who frequently help out the imperium despite the imperium's dislike of them?

Who were made to fight evil and defend life?

Who make the most beautiful works of art?

Who does all this despite near-extinction?

Eldar.

granted, but they help when it benefits them, they stay out of pretty much anything that doesnt concern them. they help themselves by helping other people. in fact it even says in the eldar codex Eldrad was the cause of the armagedon wars, because before Gazgul (i know spelled wrong back off) was a big bad warboss he fought a war against a rival boss and the eldar tipped it in Gazgul's favor because he would do less overall harm to the eldar themselves.
like i said eldar help others to aid in their race's overall survival.

and also, who voted for dark eldar!?

 

[shas_on_u]

Horses, everyone forgets the horses. They do exist you know!


But on a serious note, it used to be the old ones. Then the crons killed them so it stands to reason that the old ones successors, the eldar, are the most good. And guess what. They are, by a long way.

Faults of all other races:

Dark Eldar - Tourture.
Necrons - Lead to the route of all evil in the galaxy and fall of old ones.
Space Marines - Serious cases of discrimination leading to genocide and indiscriminate killing.
Guard - Even worse discrimination leading to genocide and massacres.
Tau - They are essentially terrorists, they kill things because of their belief in "the greater good".
Orks - They kill for fun.
Kroot/Vespids - They kill for money
Daemon Hunters & Witch Hunters - Wipe out planets cos of pretty much any excuse.
Daemons - They kill because of... cos they can.
Tyranids - They kill other civilisations with no chance of reason. Even doing it for food it's still evil.
Chaos Marines - They worship things that kill because they can.

Which leaves eldar who have one problem, they lead to the fall and dark eldar. But that was necrons fault anyway so essentially they are the only race that doesn't do anything evil. All their actions are for survival and to stop true evil races.

 

[Black Skull]

Horses, everyone forgets the horses. They do exist you know!


But on a serious note, it used to be the old ones. Then the crons killed them so it stands to reason that the old ones successors, the eldar, are the most good. And guess what. They are, by a long way.

Faults of all other races:

(snip)
Daemons - They kill because of... cos they can.
(snip)

Which leaves eldar who have one problem, they lead to the fall and dark eldar. But that was necrons fault anyway so essentially they are the only race that doesn't do anything evil. All their actions are for survival and to stop true evil races.

Actually they kill because the phsycic morons from every other race created 4 beings of pure unfiltered dark emotions (not neccesarily evil) which then created the daemons.

Its not like a Bloodthirster can go "oh, I don't want to kill the squishy little pink men today." He has to go, "WTF KILL MAIN BLARG WTF!" Daemons aren''t evil by choice, they are chaotic (not evil) because they are made up of that energy. Khornate Daemons are made up of the universes hate, rqage and martial ambition. Tzeentchian Daemons are made of the universes deceptive tendencies, their secretive self-serving nature.... you get the idea, by no means are they good, but Daemons aren't evil.

I voted for Orks, simply because they really are the only race that you never have to wonder what they are planning, because their plans usually revolve around the concept of "SMASH DA PINK GROT-LOVERS!"

 

[Polaria]

Lets see:

All Imperials (WH, DH, IG and SM) are basically fanatics who fight in order to to force their particular religion down other peoples throat. With flamethrower.

Tau are basically fanatics who fight in order to force their philosophy down other peoples throat. With pheromones.

Chaos is as fanatic but with psychotic, malicious streak.

Eldars are selfish nutcases who act according to Farseers "visions" and care for nothing else than their own survival.

Necrons are basically just bitter and hate you. And everyone else, too.

Orks really don't care.

Dark Eldar care even less.

Tyranids can't care. Its all instinctive, baby.

No-one gets any points for being "good" here. Tau get the highest points on hypocrisy, though. Tyranids are actually most neutral, but when you don't have free choice you don't have a concept of "good" or "evil".

 

[avatar of khaine]

They don't care about saving Mon-Keigh, they couldn't care less. Their goal is basically the restoration of their empire and their "rightful" place in the galaxy. Chaos just stand in their way. The Humans who are on "their" world are just as much targets for their anger but it's a matter of whoever is the biggest threat.

Wait, what?

So they don't care about man. Big deal. That still ranks them waaaaay above everyone else. No other race is so kind as to not care about someone, especially someone who would be only too happy to kill the lot of them. And yes, they defend the maiden worlds, because to them, man are invading them. And even then, they offer mercy and the chance to surrender. Would man be so kind to eldar settlers?

 

[Polaria]

And even then, they offer mercy and the chance to surrender. Would man be so kind to eldar settlers?

Eldar hardly rank as stupid, you know. They know they are a dying race and its damn hard to replace their casualties. If they decide to offer no mercy to the mankind it will only make the men fight to the last breath, thus casuing more irreplacable casualties to the eldar.

Also do notice that the tactic used is based on farseers visions. If the farseer says in the long haul giving mercy makes eldar survive better, the aspect warriors say "Yes sir". The farseer, being highly emotional and actually having the psionic capabilities to understand the cause-effect relations of all things might have a sliver of goodness in them. The Aspect Warriors, on the other hand, are remorseless, near-psychotic sociopaths who are ready to kill anything and anyone at the drop of a hat. They are not just professional killers like Imperial Guard... Nope, they are lifestyle killers who actually enjoy every moment of it. Thats why so many of them lose themselves and become Exarchs.

 

[avatar of khaine]

The Aspect Warriors, on the other hand, are remorseless, near-psychotic sociopaths who are ready to kill anything and anyone at the drop of a hat. They are not just professional killers like Imperial Guard... Nope, they are lifestyle killers who actually enjoy every moment of it. Thats why so many of them lose themselves and become Exarchs.

Again, what? Nowhere in the codex does it say they are remorseless psychopaths. In fact, "when they put aside their ritual masks and uniforms they can walk at peace through the craftworld."

Exarchs may be more like this, but becoming lost on a path (the path of the warrior in this case) is "A terrible and frightening fate for all eldar." It also doesn't say that lots of warriors become lost on the path of the warrior. It's true that they spend a lot of time training, but that's the nature of the eldar paths that they all walk. An artisan isn't "A remorseless building machine, ready to build anything at the drop of a hat." He's simply good at what he does.

Oh, and the mercy thing: Most humans wouldn't even know what eldar are, and barely a handful would know that they can be merciful. Purge the alien and so on. The imperium is hardly going to tell its recruits "The alien is merciless, unfathomable, and evil... except the eldar, they sometimes let people go."

 

[Polaria]

Again, what? Nowhere in the codex does it say they are remorseless psychopaths. In fact, "when they put aside their ritual masks and uniforms they can walk at peace through the craftworld."

Which is exactly why a human psychiatrist would diagnose Aspect Warrior as having APD (known in common parlance as being "sociopath" or "psychopath"). Lack of remorse and empathy when committing violent acts combined with the outward appearance of normalcy doesn't make you "good". It makes you sick.

Granted that you can't exactly judge Eldar psychology by human standards, but the very fact that Aspect Warriors can fall into Exarchy means we ain't that much different in this regards. Also, do notice that comparing artisans and warriors are two very different things. Artisans do not break social taboos (like killing people and destroying property) as a matter of occupation. Quite far from it. Warriors do. Constantly. An obsessive artisan is just obsessive. An obsessive warrior is psychopath. Doesn't mean that both ain't still good at what they do.

In current modern world our societies define themselves "good" by the very fact that those who are tasked to break social taboos (warriors) are expected to feel remorse and empathy. In fact, there are systems in place to actually remove psychotic people from service instead of giving them more power. Eldar, as a society, work in completely opposite way: Those who enjoy killing most (Exarchs) are put in charge of it.

Also another thing: To be "good" or "evil" you have to have free choice. You have to have the chance to choose to do good or evil. Eldar don't have. They are in brink of extinction and make their choices according to what Farseers say future will bring. That doesn't make them good or evil. It makes them just tragic, since they are trapped in a prison of their own making, being unable to choose freely because they know the consequencies of each choice before they make it.